Greece’s invisible minority the Macedonian Slavs

[Dianatomia]

You don't seem to be in the knowledge of what an ethnicity means. Every population that has their own language, folk customs, common historical and geographical origin and have their own self-identifying awareness is an ethnicity. The reason that many Vlachs, Slavophones and Arvanites in Greece are loyal to Greece today and also identify with the Greek nation doesn't exclude the fact that these people are ethnic minorities themselves,.

Vlachs and Arvanites would consider it an insult to label them a minority in Greece. Most Slavophones as well. They don't want any of it. There are only few of them who do not have a Greek ethnic consciousness. Not enough to label them as a minority.

You must realize that the Slavophones who still remain in Greece, Vlachs and Arvanites had their share of sacrifices in the formation of the modern Greek state. Now, the real minorities in Greece, those who did not have a Greek ethnic consciousness sided with the axis forces, hoping that they would help them annex. land which was part of Greece (at some point they even did). As such, they were expelled from Greece after the 40s. Or they fled fearing the worse from the Greek fascist regime of the time. Similar things happened with i.e. the Greek minority in Bulgaria. And there are still some Greek speakers there who feel Bulgarian.

[Archduke]

Vlachs and Arvanites would consider it an insult to label them a minority in Greece. Most Slavophones as well. They don't want any of it. There are only few of them who do not have a Greek ethnic consciousness. Not enough to label them as a minority.

You must realize that the Slavophones who still remain in Greece, Vlachs and Arvanites had their share of sacrifices in the formation of the modern Greek state. Now, the real minorities in Greece, those who did not have a Greek ethnic consciousness sided with the axis forces, hoping that they would help them annex. land which was part of Greece (at some point they even did). As such, they were expelled from Greece after the 40s. Or they fled fearing the worse from the Greek fascist regime of the time. Similar things happened with i.e. the Greek minority in Bulgaria. And there are still some Greek speakers there who feel Bulgarian.

Greeks in Bulgaria cannot be compared to Bulgarians in Greece as minority..the second were a much bigger mass.

But despite being insignificant minority, they were very much present in the places they lived. Unfortunately, native Greeks in Bulgaria do not exist anymore. Most of them married other Bulgarians and never taught their children in Greek. The only sign that once Greeks lived here can be found in the cemetery where you can see Greek names written in cyrillic here and there.

Greeks are probably the most successfully assimilated minority of Bulgaria

[Dorian]

mumbling

[Hrant Dink]

You, Kaido, Dimos, Hrank Dink and other TA users like you are part of this minority. You have just been Hellenized since Ottoman times. We call you Grkomani, but you are still part of our race. I hold out hope that you will one day return to the flock as Vlacho-Arvantite neo-Greeks will never accept you as their own no matter how well you speak the Greek language or how hard you pound your chest as a pure Hellene.

We'll come back to this a few posts down.

Ah but before the Patriarchate was the Ohrid Archbishopric. Who betrayed who my Slavophone brother?

No, it was the Bulgarian Bishopric of Ohrid, which was under control of the Patriarchate. Once again you try to bury your Bulgarian heritage.

Ok Austrian boy, relax know one is going to convert you. You can live out your Hellenic fantasies in peace. We’re only interested in those Slavophones who identify as ethnic Macedonians and Bulgarians. The rest of you Grkomani are our sworn enemies. There is no peace with you.

1. You expect me to "return to the flock" one day.
2. I'm your sworn enemy and you want nothing to do with me.

Does comedy get any better than this?

At the end of the Ottoman empire, Greeks sided with the Turks to wipe out the native Macedonian population of Macedonia. Macedonians were a menace for both the Turks and Greeks, because we wanted a free Macedonia.

Well that's a load of crap. The Greeks tactically allied with the Turks for awhile after the Ilinden Uprising to get the upper hand against the weakened Bulgarians. The alliance allowed the Macedonians to severely cripple Bulgarian-VMRO forces in the Kastoria-Monastiri corridor.

The Bulgarians also allied with the Turks after Greece lost the 1897 Greco-Turkish war. The Greeks just made better use of the Turks.

No. Whilst the name issue is resolved, the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece is not. Whilst the Greeks can black-mail our government to sign anything just to get into NATO/EU, the rest of us Macedonians will not rest. We will remain a thorn in the side of the Greeks.

All these internet posts have accomplished what exactly? Oh yeah, absolutely nothing.

Pavlos Melas was a long way from home and deserved to die.

And the inspiration that came from his death caused you to lose, which you deserved.

Slavophones are actually quite a sizeable population in northern Greece, despite the population changes. They are certainly not a majority, but sizeable nonetheless. The problem is due to Hellenization policies of the Greek state, most of them identify as Greeks. What we want is our language to be learned in schools and fostered amongst the Slavophone population, so they can preserve the language of their forefathers. Greeks sees this as a security risk and act hysterically, as you can see.

What you want is irrelevant. You have no rights and never will. This stupid agreement means you are officially nothing in Greece in perpetuity.

We are a loyal US client-state. Our loyalty will be rewarded. Greece's refusal to participate in various US wars are well noted, especially when we have contributed instead, despite our size and capacity.

That's pretty funny considering most American political types (including Trump) think the Iraq War was a huge mistake. The Americans don't care that Greece did not send troops to Iraq. When the subject comes up, Trump can't stop praising Greece for its military spending.

You'll get more loyalty from your VISA card.

Linguistically, culturally, genetically the Slavophones of Greece are the same as us, despite their knowledge of the Greek language in addition to their mother tongue.

Linguistically, definitely not. We don't speak that Srboman trash.

Culturally, definitely not. I cringe when some idiot group from Skopje tries to play our folk music.

Genetically, couldn't give a shit.

There are unassimilated ones in your borders and this is what the OP is about. They just want their human rights exercised and the Greek state is preventing it. It's OK, all efforts are going through official channels.

Disney Channel? Playboy Channel?

[Aspar]

...

Hey Hrant, where exactly are you from?
And I mean no hostilities, just by curiosity, which city or a village in Greece are you from?

[Vojnik]

1. You expect me to "return to the flock" one day.
2. I'm your sworn enemy and you want nothing to do with me.

I'm more in line with the 2nd option.

Well that's a load of crap. The Greeks tactically allied with the Turks for awhile after the Ilinden Uprising to get the upper hand against the weakened Bulgarians. The alliance allowed the Macedonians to severely cripple Bulgarian-VMRO forces in the Kastoria-Monastiri corridor.

So your dirty mongrel ancestors from Crete and southern ellada who invaded Macedonia did this to the actual native Macedonians. With the help of the Turks.

The Bulgarians also allied with the Turks after Greece lost the 1897 Greco-Turkish war. The Greeks just made better use of the Turks.

Greeks and Turks. Allies against the native Macedonians:

And the inspiration that came from his death caused you to lose, which you deserved.

We deserved to lose against invaders from Athens, Crete and southern greek islands? Even though we were on our actual native land? And you were all sent there from far away places.

Linguistically, definitely not. We don't speak that Srboman trash.

I hear this alot from Grkoman cowards. Linguistically there's a continuum across the border weather you like it or not. It is very much the same language. Ofcourse the standardised Macedonian language is going to be different.

Culturally, definitely not. I cringe when some idiot group from Skopje tries to play our folk music.

You weirdo. Wow these last bits really astonished me. You guys play the music that originates from the Republic of Macedonia. There are countless videos i can post to prove this.

Genetically, couldn't give a shit.

Genetically, Linguistically and culturally exactly the same. Unless you can prove otherwise. Which you haven't proven, but just given false opinions.

[dosas]

snip

Vasileios Melenganos from Kastoria. Brutally murdered by komitadjis in 1905 and left in the middle of the town to rot, as a reminder of what happens to those who identify as Greeks, during the Macedonian struggle. His only crime was that he was a teacher.

Warning.

Spoiler!

Efterpi Ouzouni, teacher of the Greek language and also from Kastoria, brutally murdered by komitadjis in 1904 and left to rot in plain sight.

Warning.

Spoiler!

The point of this post was not to incite sensationalism but to illustrate that both side were guilty of committing atrocities against each other. You can't paint one side as evil without admitting the crimes committed by the other, also.

[Crn Volk]

Vasileios Melenganos from Kastoria. Brutally murdered by komitadjis in 1905 and left in the middle of the town to rot, as a reminder of what happens to those who identify as Greeks, during the Macedonian struggle. His only crime was that he was a teacher.

Warning.

Spoiler!

Efterpi Ouzouni, teacher of the Greek language and also from Kastoria, brutally murdered by komitadjis in 1904 and left to rot in plain sight.

Warning.

Spoiler!

The point of this post was not to incite sensationalism but to illustrate that both side were guilty of committing atrocities against each other. You can't paint one side as evil without admitting the crimes committed by the other, also.

Sure, but it was the Greek state that changed the ethnic structure of Greek Macedonia through violent means. This is the point. It’s called ethnic cleansing these days.

[dosas]

Sure, but it was the Greek state that changed the ethnic structure of Greek Macedonia through violent means. This is the point. It’s called ethnic cleansing these days.

The population changes that you speak of happened with voluntary population exchanges between the states of Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria (ref. the Treaty of Lausanne and the Treaty of Molov-Kafantaris).

After WW2 the Slavophone komitadji communists were the main perpetrators of the mass displacement of refugees and children espescially, the so called 'pedomazoma', from Western Macedonia into their backlines behind the Serbian border. They wanted to rebuild their ranks for a revanche, one that historically never took place.

As for the treatment of the Greek Vlach minority of Bitola, these people are still fearful for their lives today for identifying as Greek. It is no accident that when Yugoslavia collapsed there were about 300k application for Greek passports at the local embassy.

I am not trying to be antagonistic here, I am just saying there's two sides to every story and your historical references are not very well lined up as to what happened actually. You hate Greece for the displacement of civil war refugees but you should really hate the Slavophone communists because they were the main facilitators for this (there's a very touching film about it called Helen Gatzoyiannis, check my link), etc.

Spoiler!

[Crn Volk]

It is no accident that when Yugoslavia collapsed there were about 300k application for Greek passports at the local embassy.

Do you have a source for this?