Maps of pre-roman europe

[Peterski]

The Cimbri (...) likely converted to Celtic speaking

Nope, this article argues that the Cimbri were genetically Celtic and that they were the source of R1b-U152 in modern Denmark:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

As you know Germanic subclade of R1b is U106, while U152 is Italo-Celtic. But modern Danes have some U152 from the Cimbri.

but originally it is highly likely that both groups were germanic

What makes you think so? Generally Germanic expansion into Poland starts in Common Era.

In times Before Christ there were no Germanic people here, at least not outside of Pomerania.

Plus this map is in pre Roman times, that map is 1-2 centuries ad.

It would be hard to create a map for Pre-Roman times, due to lack of written sources.

In Pre-Roman times you only have archaeology, but no any texts about this territory.

Also mathair isn’t a Celtic god

Not today of course, because all Celts are Christians. But it used to be a Pagan deity.

Another possible etymology for the Harii is from Celtic ario/arios (same etymology as given name Ariovist).

some of the Lugii may have been celts, but most were likely Germans (vandals, probably)

Vandals is a name that appears at the Vistula later than Lugii. Lugii is an older name.

Vandals were newcomers to the area, in times when Lugii had been long established.

Lugii were Celts and Vandals were Germanic tribes who came later to this region.

[TheOldNorth]

Nope, this article argues that the Cimbri were genetically Celtic and that they were the source of R1b-U152 in modern Denmark:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

As you know Germanic subclade of R1b is U106, while U152 is Italo-Celtic. But modern Danes have some U152 from the Cimbri.



What makes you think so? Generally Germanic expansion into Poland starts in Common Era.

In times Before Christ there were no Germanic people here, at least not outside of Pomerania.



It would be hard to create a map for Pre-Roman times, due to lack of written sources.

In Pre-Roman times you only have archaeology, but no any texts about this territory.



Not today of course, because all Celts are Christians. But it used to be a Pagan deity.

Another possible etymology for the Harii is from Celtic ario/arios (same etymology as given name Ariovist).



Vandals is a name that appears at the Vistula later than Lugii. Lugii is an older name.

Vandals were newcomers to the area, in times when Lugii had been long established.

Lugii were Celts and Vandals were Germanic tribes who came later to this region.

Mathair linguistically couldn’t have became harii, sense it’s an Irish word post old Irish shift (500s ad), so yeah maybe it is from arios. Either way it’s likely that the people in this valley were early East Germans (proto-goths) who adopted Hallstatt style weapons/art do to contact & I do believe some tribes could have been pockets of Celtic migrants (especially in the south). Most maps don’t show much R1b-U152, so whatever amount they have is likely do to natural spreading (population leakage) or contact with the Gauls (after all the gundastrup cauldron was from Thrace, with Celtic gods in Germanic territory). Germanic expansion into Poland occurred during the pre roman Iron Age as well.
Also there are sources by Ancient Greek authors of the tribes to the north +achaeology means my map isn’t perfect but still good.

[Peterski]

Either way it’s likely that the people in this valley were early East Germans (proto-goths)

Goths came from Scandinavia under King Berig in the 1st century AD and landed in Pomerania. It is all in Jordanes and recently published Gothic DNA samples from Iberia basically confirm this story (we will also have Gothic DNA samples from Poland eventually).

In the 1st and early 2nd century AD Goths were in Pomerania. By the 3rd century AD they moved to Masovia, South-Eastern Poland and into Ukraine, reaching the Black Sea. In the 4th century AD they crossed the Danube River and entered the Roman Empire. Later one branch (the Visigoths) moved west across the Balkans, North Italy and southern Gaul (France), entering Iberia in the 5th century AD.

Before the birth of Jesus there were no any Goths in Poland. Their arrival in the 1st century AD coincides with the emergence of Wielbark archaeological culture.

Goths never lived in South-Western and South-Central Poland where we had Hallstatt culture. They landed in Pomerania and then gradually migrated towards the South-East, along the Vistula (but they generally kept themselves to the east of this river, moving along the eastern banks of the river).

[Tigranes]

[Peterski]

Germanic expansion into Poland occurred during the pre roman Iron Age as well.

No evidence for this and certainly not anywhere in Southern or Central Poland. Remember that for example Germanic expansion into what is today South Germany, Bohemia, Slovakia etc. also occured only during Roman times. When Julius Caesar was invading Gaul, South Germany was still Celtic.

Also there are sources by Ancient Greek authors of the tribes to the north

The oldest sources saying anything about Polish lands are from Roman times. Ancient Greeks had no knowledge about this area and no contact with tribes living here.

The only parts of Northern and Eastern Europe that Greeks knew something about were the British Isles and North Sea coast around Belgium, the Netherlands and North-West Germany (here they had knowledge from explorers such as Pytheas of Massalia) as well as Ukraine (here they had knowledge from Greek colonies in Southern Ukraine).

Herodotus was describing Northern Europe but he had only vague knowledge and a lot of what he wrote was based on legends and rumours. Various tribes he mentioned were rather not located in Poland but either in Ukraine and Russia or in Western Europe.

I have the book "Vistula amne discreta, the oldest Latin and Greek sources to the history of Poland" and it contains most of ancient texts that had anything to do with the lands along the Vistula River (the book contains original Latin texts, Polish translations, and long commentaries by the authors).

The oldest indirect reference to someone from Poland according to that book was the mention of barbarian chieftain Lugius who fought in the Cimbrian War. The authors speculate that Lugius was ethnically Lugian (hence his nickname) and was born in what is now Southern Poland:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugius

But is just a hypothesis, that's why information about Lugius is only indirectly related to Poland.

The Vistula River for example was unknown to the Romans (and to the Greeks too) at the time of the Cimbrian War. They learned about its existence a century or so later.

[TheOldNorth]

best comment here!