Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun,Avar & conquering Hungarian period people of the Carpathian Basin

[ph2ter]

Ah yeah, true. I copied what Radek/Waldemar wrote without checking. Fixed it now.

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I don't know why do they claim that I2a is Cucuteni-Trypillian?

All of the Cucuteni-Trypillian samples so far were G2a, not I2a:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../49.449/30.072

I1926 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H5a
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

I1927 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H1b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1

I2110 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: T2b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

This nonsense will never end. And in scientific papers also...

[Adam Janossy]

This is final nail to the coffin about Finno-Ugric genetic origin of Hungarian conquerors. Looks like only language was FU while genetics, mostly Turkic. Congrats to Turul Karom because this study gives lot of credit to his ideas

"Population genetic data rather position the Conqueror elite among Turkic groups, Bashkirs and Volga Tatars, in agreement with contemporary historical accounts which denominated the Conquerors as Turks"

The uniform paternal lineages of the small Karos3 (19 graves) and Magyarhomorog (17 graves) cemeteries approve patrilinear organization of these communities. The identical I2a1a2b Hg-s of Magyarhomorog individuals appears to be frequent among high-ranking Conquerors, as the most distinguished graves in the Karos2 and 3 cemeteries also belong to this lineage. The Karos2 and Karos3 leaders were brothers with identical mitogenomes 11 and Ychromosomal STR profiles (Fóthi unpublished). The Sárrétudvari commoner cemetery seems distinct from the others, containing other sorts of European Hg-s. Available Y-chromosomal and mtDNA data 11 from this cemetery suggest that common people of the 10th century rather represented resident population than newcomers.

Most elite graves - I2a

[Yaglakar]

There is also Avar mtdna paper. Inner Asian maternal genetic origin of the Avar period nomadic elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rpathian_Basin

[Adam Janossy]

No N1c!!! Edit: N1c = N1a (new nomenclature!!!)

All N-Hg-s identified in the Avars and Conquerors belonged to N1a1a-M178. We have tested 7 subclades of M178; N1a1a2-B187, N1a1a1a2-B211, N1a1a1a1a3-B197, N1a1a1a1a4-M2118, N1a1a1a1a1a-VL29, N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 and the N1a1a1a1a2a1c1-L1034 subbranch of Z1936. The European subclades VL29 and Z1936 could be excluded in most cases, while the rest of the subclades are prevalent in Siberia 23 from where this Hg dispersed in a counter-clockwise migratory route to Europe (…). All the 5 other Avar samples belonged to N1a1a1a1a3-B197, which is most prevalent in Chukchi, Buryats, Eskimos, Koryaks and appears among Tuvans and Mongols with lower frequency.

By contrast two Conquerors belonged to N1a1a1a1a4-M2118, the Y lineage of nearly all Yakut males, being also frequent in Evenks, Evens and occurring with lower frequency among Khantys, Mansis and Kazakhs.

Three Conqueror samples belonged to Hg N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 , the Finno-Permic N1a branch, being most frequent among northeastern European Saami, Finns, Karelians, as well as Komis, Volga Tatars and Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural region.Nevertheless this Hg is also present with lower frequency among Karanogays, Siberian Nenets, Khantys, Mansis, Dolgans, Nganasans, and Siberian Tatars.

The west Eurasian R1a1a1b1a2b-CTS1211 subclade of R1a is most frequent in Eastern Europe especially among Slavic people. This Hg was detected just in the Conqueror group (K2/18, K2/41 and K1/10). Though CTS1211 was not covered in K2/36 but it may also belong to this sub-branch of Z283.

Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9) most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16 (see below). This Hg of European origin is most prominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups.

[Mr.G]

No N1c!!!

All N-Hg-s identified in the Avars and Conquerors belonged to N1a1a-M178. We have tested 7 subclades of M178; N1a1a2-B187, N1a1a1a2-B211, N1a1a1a1a3-B197, N1a1a1a1a4-M2118, N1a1a1a1a1a-VL29, N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 and the N1a1a1a1a2a1c1-L1034 subbranch of Z1936. The European subclades VL29 and Z1936 could be excluded in most cases, while the rest of the subclades are prevalent in Siberia 23 from where this Hg dispersed in a counter-clockwise migratory route to Europe (…). All the 5 other Avar samples belonged to N1a1a1a1a3-B197, which is most prevalent in Chukchi, Buryats, Eskimos, Koryaks and appears among Tuvans and Mongols with lower frequency.

By contrast two Conquerors belonged to N1a1a1a1a4-M2118, the Y lineage of nearly all Yakut males, being also frequent in Evenks, Evens and occurring with lower frequency among Khantys, Mansis and Kazakhs.

Three Conqueror samples belonged to Hg N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 , the Finno-Permic N1a branch, being most frequent among northeastern European Saami, Finns, Karelians, as well as Komis, Volga Tatars and Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural region.Nevertheless this Hg is also present with lower frequency among Karanogays, Siberian Nenets, Khantys, Mansis, Dolgans, Nganasans, and Siberian Tatars.

The west Eurasian R1a1a1b1a2b-CTS1211 subclade of R1a is most frequent in Eastern Europe especially among Slavic people. This Hg was detected just in the Conqueror group (K2/18, K2/41 and K1/10). Though CTS1211 was not covered in K2/36 but it may also belong to this sub-branch of Z283.

Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9) most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16 (see below). This Hg of European origin is most prominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups.

N1c is now referred to as N1a. It's the same thing. My particular N haplo subclade is downstream of VL29, which was apparently found among the conquerors according to the above. However, I'm not sure if my subclade arrived with the conquerors or a migration out of the Baltic. Apparently both scenarios are possible but I think an arrival from the Baltic is more likely for my particular brand of N.

[Adam Janossy]

N1c is now referred to as N1a. It's the same thing. My particular N haplo subclade is downstream of VL29, which was apparently found among the conquerors according to the above. However, I'm not sure if my subclade arrived with the conquerors or a migration out of the Baltic. Apparently both scenarios are possible but I think an arrival from the Baltic is more likely for my particular brand of N.

Thank you, we just discussed this possibility because I never heard about N1a before. In that case dual conquest theory still could be true. The hypotesis:
Hungarian Finno-Ugric language arrived with Avars who were mostly N and very Siberian genetically, while conqueror elite was Turkic and non-Hungarian speaking.

Stears supports this theory.

https://journals.library.ualberta.ca...icle/view/7/17

I hate when they change nomenclature! It creates great deal of confusion.

[Mr.G]

Thank you, we just discussed this possibility because I never heard about N1a before. In that case dual conquest theory still could be true. The hypotesis:
Hungarian Finno-Ugric language arrived with Avars who were mostly N and very Siberian genetically, while conqueror elite was Turkic and non-Hungarian speaking.

Stears supports this theory.

Yes, I like this theory as well.

[Dick]

Hungarian Finno-Ugric language arrived with Avars who were mostly N and very Siberian genetically, while conqueror elite was Turkic and non-Hungarian speaking.
[/I]

So the ancient people in modern day Hungary were already speaking finno-ugric "magyar" before the Magyars showed up??

[Adam Janossy]

So the ancient people in modern day Hungary were already speaking finno-ugric "magyar" before the Magyars showed up??

Yes, the theory is Avars were Hungarian speakers and looking at their genetics it really could be (Siberian autosomally, N haplogroup dominance).

[Ayetooey]

So whats with the I2a? Assimilated Slavs who were already present in Hungary, or did these clades come from the east with these Hun/Avars?