Light eyes map of Europe (detail, scientifically backed)

[Septentrion]

What bias? There is no bias against Celtic people? If Ireland was shown to be majority Celtic genetically I would love that but genetics shows they aren't genetically Celts. This is just factual and not bias. I just go by what the genetics shows. It's a similar situation when people were claiming Irish were descended from Basques or they came from Spain. When I claim this isn't factual I've been accused of being anti-Spanish. I'm neither anti-Spanish nor anti-Celtic. I was brought up to believe the Irish were Celtic and we were different than our English neighbours. When I first saw a genetic plot was I ever confused. Straight away I grasped if the Irish were Celts and a different population than the English why do they cluster with them? Why do Irish on calculators like Eurogenes K13 get North Dutch as their no 1 population? I'm not claiming Irish are Germanic either (God forbid). Just that they are Northwestern European and mostly descend from Bronze Age Bell Beaker, with some Celt and Germanic. English and Dutch would have these ancestries as well but English and Dutch have a lot of Germanic ancestry. However all this mix must not be that different because populations wouldn't cluster together. If Irish have a different mix they wouldn't cluster where they do or if there wasn't some constant low level mixing they wouldn't cluster where they do. If for instance Irish were isolated since the Bronze Age they would end up further away and in their own cluster. They don't. Why? Because there has been people coming to Ireland from Britain and also Normans and Vikings and also some people going back and forth from Britain and vice versa.

Anyway facts are facts. Irish, Welsh and Scots are Insular Celts because they have Celtic language and have been brought up to think of themselves as Celts however genetics shows they are majority not Celtic genetically. It is not bias to state this. Also Germans are not just Germanic genetically. Germany is quite diverse and Germans are Germanic as well as Celtic and Slavic genetically. Irish would have some actual Celtic ancestry but it is small.

When I was talking about bias against Celtic people. You are definitely not included. Bretons, Irish, Scottish and Welsh are Celtic people, that’s it. In the same way the Danes, Dutch, English, Flemish (myself included) and Germans are Germanic people. Obviously, language is the first thing. Both Celtic and Germanic people have Bell Beaker genes anyway. So having Bell Beaker genes isn’t enough to distinguish such populations. I already elaborated the lineages that separates Germanic from Celtic people in Northern and Western Europe. The reason why the Irish and Dutch and other Northern Euros cluster together genetically is because they share an older ancestry at the some point. Celtic and Germanic people if one goes back in time do share a similar origin and then they split and went different ways.

[Melkiirs]

When I was talking about bias against Celtic people. You are definitely not included. Bretons, Irish, Scottish and Welsh are Celtic people, that’s it. In the same way the Danes, Dutch, English, Flemish (myself included) and Germans are Germanic people. Obviously, language is the first thing. Both Celtic and Germanic people have Bell Beaker genes anyway. So having Bell Beaker genes isn’t enough to distinguish such populations. I already elaborated the lineages that separates Germanic from Celtic people in Northern and Western Europe. The reason why the Irish and Dutch and other Northern Euros cluster together genetically is because they share an older ancestry at the some point. Celtic and Germanic people if one goes back in time do share a similar origin and then they split and went different ways.

The predisposition of the Iron Age British Isles population and their closest descendants to pale skin and rufosity for example is not because they are the most pure Bell Beakers. Based on the samples available red hair was still fairly uncommon among the Bronze Age Bell Beakers with only a few carriers identified a far cry from the ~50% observed in populations with the most Iron Age British Isles admixture. Shared Bell Beaker ancestry cannot account for more recent phenotype changes influenced by local selective factors.

[Septentrion]

The predisposition of the Iron Age British Isles population and their closest descendants to pale skin and rufosity for example is not because they are the most pure Bell Beakers. Based on the samples available red hair was still fairly uncommon among the Bronze Age Bell Beakers with only a few carriers identified a far cry from the ~50% observed in populations with the most Iron Age British Isles admixture. Shared Bell Beaker ancestry cannot account for more recent phenotype changes influenced by local selective factors.

I have never spoken about the purity of Bell Beakers. So I don’t know why you came out with this. All I’m trying to say was that shared Bell Beakers ancestry may be why these Northern European populations ( British, Dutch, Irish, Scandinavian) genetically cluster closedtogether regardless of their Celtic or Germanic affiliations or physical appearances . Additionally, I could say that the red-haired gene in the British Isles was strengthened further by invasions of Scandinavians mainly from Denmark and Norway which are the most red-headed of Scandinavia (Iceland excluded). DNA testing for example show that red hair was most common among Danish Vikings while blonde hair most common among the Swedish Vikings. With red hair already frequent in the British Isles at the time of Viking's invasions added to these new red-haired barbaric, noisy, very strong Northmen with axes invading, the outcome cannot surprise anyone. As I already said at least 5% of Danish and Norwegians are ginger as a whole.

[Grace O'Malley]

When I was talking about bias against Celtic people. You are definitely not included. Bretons, Irish, Scottish and Welsh are Celtic people, that’s it. In the same way the Danes, Dutch, English, Flemish (myself included) and Germans are Germanic people. Obviously, language is the first thing. Both Celtic and Germanic people have Bell Beaker genes anyway. So having Bell Beaker genes isn’t enough to distinguish such populations. I already elaborated the lineages that separates Germanic from Celtic people in Northern and Western Europe. The reason why the Irish and Dutch and other Northern Euros cluster together genetically is because they share an older ancestry at the some point. Celtic and Germanic people if one goes back in time do share a similar origin and then they split and went different ways.

Thank you but I think you are stuck a bit on some things. Lots of Europeans have Bell Beaker genes but the Celts were a combination of populations. They were a more Southern population than Bell Beakers for instance. All I'm saying is that you have to differentiate between "Insular Celts" and ancient Celts.

[Balboa]

Even though all my Ancestry is in the sub 20% range , i have light hair (fair blonde as a kid) and light blue eyes with pale olive-ish skin, my DNA doesnt seem to show any outside influence so am I just an anthropological outlier? Especially for Sardinians and Calabrians which are known to be swarthy.

[Septentrion]

Thank you but I think you are stuck a bit on some things. Lots of Europeans have Bell Beaker genes but the Celts were a combination of populations. They were a more Southern population than Bell Beakers for instance. All I'm saying is that you have to differentiate between "Insular Celts" and ancient Celts.

Maybe you’re right. However you could say the same thing about Germanic people, even though I personally believe that they were a more “Northern” population. They are also a result of combinations of various people and don’t hail from one lineage either. Since Celts covered such a large part of our continent, they couldn’t have been homogeneous. There was much more intermingling on the continent than they’d be in Isles. Remember geographical location plays a role. The people we mostly identify as Celtic today are in Celtic Fringe but it doesn’t mean they represent the much bigger body of Celts who occupied the continent. Insular Celts on the other hand, most likely retain more of what’s Celtic than Continental ones due to reasons given.

[Septentrion]

Even though all my Ancestry is in the sub 20% range , i have light hair (fair blonde as a kid) and light blue eyes with pale olive-ish skin, my DNA doesnt seem to show any outside influence so am I just an anthropological outlier? Especially for Sardinians and Calabrians which are known to be swarthy.

Fair skin, light hair and light eyes are not restricted to Northern Europe. They are just most frequent there. There are occasional blond-haired folks even in the swarthiest regions of Europe. In other words, the so-called Northern European traits and features occasionally appear in individuals who are from predominantly so-called “Southern” European looking families or populations. The times I visited Italy, I saw a couple of fair-pigmented people especially towards the northern towns. People, I wouldn’t associate as being Italian at least at first sight. However, I didn’t see nowhere any adult male who was as tall (almost 2 meters) as I am and red-haired. I always stood out everywhere I went. Even so, I can’t rule out that there weren’t quite a few tall gingers maybe I just didn’t get to see them.

[Septentrion]

The predisposition of the Iron Age British Isles population and their closest descendants to pale skin and rufosity for example is not because they are the most pure Bell Beakers. Based on the samples available red hair was still fairly uncommon among the Bronze Age Bell Beakers with only a few carriers identified a far cry from the ~50% observed in populations with the most Iron Age British Isles admixture. Shared Bell Beaker ancestry cannot account for more recent phenotype changes influenced by local selective factors.

The propensity for red hair genes is still higher in the British Isles than in Norway. Another good proof is that Scandinavians, Norwegians as well do have a bit more melanin in their skin than western neighbors (British and Irish). For this reason despite being fair-skinned, have a greater disposition to tan well.

[sofiagris]

That's right, you are absolutely right, even in Spain, Portugal or Greece, there are around 15% blue-gray eyes and another 25% greenish eyes, and 5% blonde hair and 10% light brown hair

[Melkiirs]

The propensity for red hair genes is still higher in the British Isles than in Norway. Another good proof is that Scandinavians, Norwegians as well do have a bit more melanin in their skin than western neighbors (British and Irish). For this reason despite being fair-skinned, have a greater disposition to tan well.

The 2012 Helsing et al study did not indicate that the MC1R gene could be used to explain a difference in pigmentation between Norwegians and any British Isles ethnicity. That is the only study collecting data on MC1R variants involving Norwegians controls. There is more data from other sources for Swedes and Danes which indicate a lower carrier rate than Insular Celts and the more native Iron Age shifted English. In all likelihood Western Norway and Iceland are comparable to most of the British Isles including of Insular Celts in terms of RHC variants and full range of rufosity. Any difference in skin pigmentation or tanning ability between these populations and the British may be due to other genes besides MC1R.