Which Turkic ethnicity is genetically closest to Proto Turks?

[Mejgusu]

Do we know exactly genetically how Proto-Turks looked like?

We don’t know, the origin of Turkics is still a mystery. There are different theories, what i have seen is that Eastern Scythians and Xiongnu are definitely best candidates for Proto-Turkic-origins(genetically!). Eastern Scythians were genetically totally different to Western Scythians, it seems nowadays Iranics aren’t influenced by eastern but directly descended by Western Scythians. The important thing is and i am very careful about calling eastern Scythian as Turkic. We only know they were a part of the Iranic empire, i wouldn’t be surprised if they spoke another language. We don’t have scripts or other archeological writings since Iranic was lingua franca, all this are just theories so calling them Turkic without linguistic proofs is wrong. Imo it is pretty clear that Xiongnu were the ancestors of Turks, i even believe the term Xiongnu is a Chinese version of another, Altaic word. Honestly i don’t think they look different to nowadays Turkics.

The Volga Tatars and Bulgars are descendants of the Scythians and Ugric peoples.

No. Only Cuvashes have substantial F-Ugric Dna, other Turkics in that region are Ugric shifted but definitely have enormous Turkic substrate in their genetics.

[Kaspias]

There is no need for such abstract formulations.
Can you indicate the archaeological culture that you associate with the Proto-Turkic? Then we can find out what the pro-Turkic people were like.

Afanasiyevo.

Volga Tatars are mostly Uralic, they are too far away from being Proto-Turk, and only partially Turkic.

Do we know exactly genetically how Proto-Turks looked like?

Steppe part:

Distance to:	MNG_Afanasievo_1
0.01908156	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.02030301	RUS_Poltavka
0.02185087	RUS_Afanasievo
0.02257346	RUS_Catacomb
0.02586231	Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
0.02672829	Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
0.02790692	RUS_Kubano-Tersk
0.03077288	Yamnaya_UKR
0.03296872	Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
0.03852571	Corded_Ware_POL_early
0.03915956	Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
0.03916501	UKR_Catacomb
0.04362048	Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
0.04467705	RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o2
0.04581820	ROU_BA

Distance to:	MNG_Afanasievo_1
0.11769365	Tajik_Rushan
0.11973994	Darginian
0.12346155	Mordovian
0.12455394	Kaitag
0.12491232	Tajik_Shugnan
0.12517281	Komi
0.12529920	Russian_Kostroma
0.12574624	Ingrian
0.12577996	Kubachinian
0.12634163	Avar
0.12661991	Finnish
0.12662578	Lak
0.12663936	Finnish_East
0.12701214	Karelian
0.12831376	Tajik_Yagnobi

Asian part:

Distance to:	MNG_Afanasievo_2
0.04680302	RUS_Shamanka_N
0.04831020	MNG_EIA_3
0.04961437	RUS_Lokomotiv_N
0.04963249	KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian
0.05123819	MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o1
0.05278194	MNG_Xiongnu_EIA_7
0.05294710	RUS_Baikal_BA_o
0.05524182	MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1
0.05617175	RUS_Fofonovo_En
0.05830252	KAZ_Nomad_HP
0.05846317	MNG_Center_West_LBA_4
0.06265740	MNG_North_N
0.06695864	MNG_Ulgii_EBA_1
0.06699579	MNG_Xianbei_IA
0.06825737	RUS_Baikal_N

Distance to:	MNG_Afanasievo_2
0.06078614	Khamnegan
0.07636600	Tuvinian
0.08163707	Mogush
0.08661159	Buryat
0.08904631	Kalmyk
0.09032413	Todzin
0.09084330	Oroqen
0.09463186	Mongolian
0.09803425	Nanai
0.09959244	Ulchi
0.10695147	Daur
0.10763390	Negidal
0.10778792	Hezhen
0.10800009	Nivkh
0.11801347	Altaian

Proto Turks from Afanasievo Mix

Distance to:	Afanasievo_Mixed
0.04368730	MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o2
0.04488908	MNG_Xiongnu_Central_Asian
0.04490771	CHN_Shirenzigou_IA
0.04871631	Saka_Kazakh_steppe
0.04944061	MNG_EIA_5
0.04970042	MNG_Sagly_EIA_4
0.05370469	RUS_Altai_IA
0.05640717	Scythian_Aldy_Bel_IA
0.07102542	Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_IA
0.07124857	KAZ_Karakhanid
0.07195320	KGZ_Turk
0.07234189	KAZ_Kimak
0.07321374	KAZ_Nomad_MA
0.07322822	MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
0.07745319	MNG_Munkhkhairkhan_MBA_2

Distance to:	Afanasievo_Mixed
0.05811461	Tatar_Siberian
0.07453513	Tubalar
0.07723235	Bashkir
0.07892836	Nogai
0.08123101	Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.08523355	Karakalpak
0.09129603	Shor_Mountain
0.09229878	Uygur
0.09366362	Shor
0.09487153	Shor_Khakassia
0.09487226	Hazara_Afghanistan
0.09598066	Hazara
0.10125404	Uzbek
0.10396218	Kazakh
0.10946356	Yukagir_Forest

After the first genetic drift in Xiongnu:

Distance to:	MNG_Xiongnu_Central_Asian
0.02770397	CHN_Shirenzigou_IA
0.03655829	MNG_EIA_5
0.04923580	Saka_Kazakh_steppe
0.05030017	MNG_Sagly_EIA_4
0.05106475	MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o2
0.05121353	KAZ_Kimak
0.05491901	Scythian_Aldy_Bel_IA
0.05628911	RUS_Altai_IA
0.05643495	KAZ_Karakhanid
0.05846799	KAZ_Karluk
0.05989423	Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_IA
0.06299746	KAZ_Kipchak
0.06473272	MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
0.07462935	KAZ_Nomad_MA
0.07467468	RUS_Nomad_MA

Distance to:	MNG_Xiongnu_Central_Asian
0.06010046	Tatar_Siberian
0.06513876	Hazara_Afghanistan
0.06629377	Uygur
0.06935267	Nogai
0.06937529	Hazara
0.07142324	Uzbek
0.07317196	Bashkir
0.07855539	Karakalpak
0.08703692	Tubalar
0.09541224	Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.10264987	Kazakh
0.10509331	Shor_Mountain
0.10724271	Shor
0.10929779	Shor_Khakassia
0.11715995	Yukagir_Forest

These drifts had been continued to occur until recently as they migrate and/or absorb other communities. Turks from Turan were bearing more Iranic, while Turks from Western Siberia bearing more Uralic.

The Yugur people, direct descendants of the ancient Uyghurs. There are 10 thousand of them.

Not likely, because ancient Uyghur's themselves were too mixed to be Proto-Turk. On the other hand, Eastern Yugurs today are genetically assimilated already. No samples so far from Western Yugurs.

Distance to: Yugur
0.02198553 Tu
0.02544024 Bonan
0.02768163 Tibetan_Gannan
0.02872575 Han_Shanxi
0.03264803 Tibetan_Xinlong

The Volga Tatars and Bulgars are descendants of the Scythians and Ugric peoples.

The Khazar-Bulgar sample shows a continuum with Turkic populations. Volga Tatars are partly descendants of Ugric peoples for sure, but Bulgars? They should be the people who Turkified the region.

Distance to:	RUS_Nomad_MA
0.04448527	KAZ_Turk
0.04473372	Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_IA
0.04883940	Scythian_RUS_Urals
0.04981576	MNG_Sagly_EIA_4
0.05018305	Hun_Tian_Shan
0.05021804	MNG_EIA_2
0.05069941	MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
0.05085693	MNG_Center_West_LBA_5
0.05373434	Scythian_Aldy_Bel_IA
0.05404046	Saka_Kazakh_steppe
0.05754766	RUS_Altai_IA
0.06046634	MNG_Pazyryk_EIA_6
0.06239766	MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o2
0.06251120	TUR_Ottoman
0.06328766	KAZ_Kipchak

Indeed ancient Uyghur results came out as no different than today's Uyghurs

Uyghur =/= Yugur. On the other hand, there is no correlation between ancient Uyghur and modern Uyghur results(giving clues of how the modern Uyghur population formed though). The samples used in this graph are partly Mongol, partly Sogdian, etc.

[Leto]

So ? What is your point ? By genetics she is still very close to Proto-Turks

Yes, I don't disagree, although some people would say Kazakhs are heavily Mongolic.

[Altaylı]

Lately I have been inclined to think that the Huns were not Turks. The Turks did not deform their skulls. The skulls were deformed by the Sarmatians, I consider the Huns to be a Sarmatian-Ugric mix. Relatives of the Huns were the ancestors of the Hungarians, the Mongoloids.

Is everything indo european?
You can see even early xiongnu carries western eurasian haplogroups

[Leto]

No. Only Cuvashes have substantial F-Ugric Dna, other Turkics in that region are Ugric shifted but definitely have enormous Turkic substrate in their genetics.

Volga Tatars do have a shit ton of Finno-Ugric blood, even Slavic, I suppose. A lot of captives from Russia were brought there, some of them must have been Islamicized. Later on, in the Russian Empire a number of Chuvash, Mari and Mordovians who didn't want to be baptized would have ironically been absorbed by Tatars.

[Nykyus]

Warriors-Mansi (Ugric) of the Ural

[Mejgusu]

Volga Tatars do have a shit ton of Finno-Ugric blood, even Slavic, I suppose. A lot of captives from Russia were brought there, some of them must have been Islamicized. Later on, in the Russian Empire a number of Chuvash, Mari and Mordovians who didn't want to be baptized would have ironically been absorbed by Tatars.

Well i did not say they have not, Volga Tatars have still more Turkic admixture than Cuvashes which are nearly full Ugric.

[Nykyus]

We don’t know, the origin of Turkics is still a mystery. There are different theories, what i have seen is that Eastern Scythians and Xiongnu are definitely best candidates for Proto-Turkic-origins(genetically!). Eastern Scythians were genetically totally different to Western Scythians, it seems nowadays Iranics aren’t influenced by eastern but directly descended by Western Scythians. The important thing is and i am very careful about calling eastern Scythian as Turkic. We only know they were a part of the Iranic empire, i wouldn’t be surprised if they spoke another language. We don’t have scripts or other archeological writings since Iranic was lingua franca, all this are just theories so calling them Turkic without linguistic proofs is wrong. Imo it is pretty clear that Xiongnu were the ancestors of Turks, i even believe the term Xiongnu is a Chinese version of another, Altaic word. Honestly i don’t think they look different to nowadays Turkics.



No. Only Cuvashes have substantial F-Ugric Dna, other Turkics in that region are Ugric shifted but definitely have enormous Turkic substrate in their genetics.

I am ready to give examples of Iranian mythology among the Yakuts and Bashkirs, Chuvash. This is Azhi Dahaka

[Nykyus]

There is an article about this demon on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak

[Leto]

I find Altaians, Shors and Khakas interesting, soon there will be updates on them for Gedmatch (Balanovsky data). Some of those groups are heavily R1a, more than Afghanistan.