What's the minimum qualification required for Aliyah?

[PaleoEuropean]

black israelites may disagree with you guys

But they are like the Creativity movement and Scientology; who actually listens to them .

[Longbowman]

They seem to be Christian to me, without getting into the semantics of it.

Oh, I agree. And you agree. And the Church agrees. But they don't agree. They see themselves as Jews, despite following Christianity, and spend a lot of their time proselytising to Jews, and can be quite predatory when it comes to Jews with limited education in religion. Their active goal is to convert the Jewish community to Christianity, which obviously is a bad start for inter-communal relationships, but hey ho, you believe in one true path and so on, so I guess I can get over that, but I can't get over their surreptitious, duplicitous nature. To illustrate: near where I live, they write to schools offering to come in and speak to them about what it's like being Jewish (you know how it goes, you're 15, you have to sit through a lecture by some dickhead from community x describing his traditions). They portray themselves as Jews. Their Churches are called 'synagogues,' their priests are called 'Rabbis,' they wear [bad versions of] Jewish garb and ritual wear, they openly present themselves as Jews and they're simply not. Not religious, not ethnically (most aren't even genetically Jewish, not that it matters), not culturally, not by ideological alignment, not even by kinship. The State of Israel, in a rare instance of doing something that 99% of Jews actually agreed with, considers that even if they're 100% Jewish by blood, a messianic 'Jew' is not a Jew, not entitled to make aliyah, and not part of the community (although messianics still exist in Israel, both new converts and people who made aliyah before that decision, or their descendants).

Essentially, imagine some pantheist mongrel considering himself [your denomination here] and going around insisting to other people that he is in fact [your denomination here] and lecturing them about it, even though his beliefs are 99% identical with [other religious beliefs].

They are an evangelical community and that is what they do. It is not one or two members, it is their community. They inspire nothing in me but disdain. If they chose to be normal Christians that would be great, but they're not.

Who exactly are they working against? Israel or Jews in general?

1) Spare me the dishonour of suggesting I'd be too offended by yet another anti-Zionist Jewish group
2) They love Israel in exactly the same way other evangelicals do

I can see why Jews would dislike them from a theological perspective and even reject them as Jews, but I don't see how they're suspicious. They believe Christianity is the fulfillment of true Judaism. That's what all Christians believe as well.

They're Christians in Jews' clothing (or so they aim for). I have no problem with, f/e, Methodists of Jewish parentage.

[Smitty]

Oh, I agree. And you agree. And the Church agrees. But they don't agree. They see themselves as Jews, despite following Christianity, and spend a lot of their time proselytising to Jews, and can be quite predatory when it comes to Jews with limited education in religion. Their active goal is to convert the Jewish community to Christianity, which obviously is a bad start for inter-communal relationships, but hey ho, you believe in one true path and so on, so I guess I can get over that, but I can't get over their surreptitious, duplicitous nature. To illustrate: near where I live, they write to schools offering to come in and speak to them about what it's like being Jewish (you know how it goes, you're 15, you have to sit through a lecture by some dickhead from community x describing his traditions). They portray themselves as Jews. Their Churches are called 'synagogues,' their priests are called 'Rabbis,' they wear [bad versions of] Jewish garb and ritual wear, they openly present themselves as Jews and they're simply not. Not religious, not ethnically (most aren't even genetically Jewish, not that it matters), not culturally, not by ideological alignment, not even by kinship. The State of Israel, in a rare instance of doing something that 99% of Jews actually agreed with, considers that even if they're 100% Jewish by blood, a messianic 'Jew' is not a Jew, not entitled to make aliyah, and not part of the community (although messianics still exist in Israel, both new converts and people who made aliyah before that decision, or their descendants).

Essentially, imagine some pantheist mongrel considering himself [your denomination here] and going around insisting to other people that he is in fact [your denomination here] and lecturing them about it, even though his beliefs are 99% identical with [other religious beliefs].

They are an evangelical community and that is what they do. It is not one or two members, it is their community. They inspire nothing in me but disdain. If they chose to be normal Christians that would be great, but they're not.



1) Spare me the dishonour of suggesting I'd be too offended by yet another anti-Zionist Jewish group
2) They love Israel in exactly the same way other evangelicals do



They're Christians in Jews' clothing (or so they aim for). I have no problem with, f/e, Methodists of Jewish parentage.

I see. So it's the lack of transparency in their presentation of themselves, which I agree is a legitimate complaint. A Christian could argue, biblically, that he is a true Jew, but to do so without providing any of the background for that argument is not very honest. And honesty matters - or should matter - a great deal to someone claiming to be a follower of Jesus.

By the way, I'm not a Christian myself, just to be clear.

[Mortimer]

Either 1/4 jew by descendt a grandparent or you are a convert

[Smitty]

I would agree, I don't say it's wrong Christians feel as they do, neither is it wrong for Jews to feel as they do. I think there may be sects like Arian Christianity attempt more inline with Jewish ideas but still not with Jewish law. The qualifications and events surrounding the Messiah from a Jewish point of view would not be fulfilled with Jesus. If you do not follow Jewish law can you ever really be a Jew aside from in name or through genealogy? The same goes for every religion imo. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, but from what defines things to each is a matter of law and dogma from each respective faith. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck.

And that's the semantic discussion there. As I said above, a Christian could make a very good case for calling himself a Jew. But your average Joe would be confused by that identification without clarification.

[happycow]

Oh, I agree. And you agree. And the Church agrees. But they don't agree. They see themselves as Jews, despite following Christianity, and spend a lot of their time proselytising to Jews, and can be quite predatory when it comes to Jews with limited education in religion. Their active goal is to convert the Jewish community to Christianity, which obviously is a bad start for inter-communal relationships, but hey ho, you believe in one true path and so on, so I guess I can get over that, but I can't get over their surreptitious, duplicitous nature. To illustrate: near where I live, they write to schools offering to come in and speak to them about what it's like being Jewish (you know how it goes, you're 15, you have to sit through a lecture by some dickhead from community x describing his traditions). They portray themselves as Jews. Their Churches are called 'synagogues,' their priests are called 'Rabbis,' they wear [bad versions of] Jewish garb and ritual wear, they openly present themselves as Jews and they're simply not. Not religious, not ethnically (most aren't even genetically Jewish, not that it matters), not culturally, not by ideological alignment, not even by kinship. The State of Israel, in a rare instance of doing something that 99% of Jews actually agreed with, considers that even if they're 100% Jewish by blood, a messianic 'Jew' is not a Jew, not entitled to make aliyah, and not part of the community (although messianics still exist in Israel, both new converts and people who made aliyah before that decision, or their descendants).

Essentially, imagine some pantheist mongrel considering himself [your denomination here] and going around insisting to other people that he is in fact [your denomination here] and lecturing them about it, even though his beliefs are 99% identical with [other religious beliefs].

They are an evangelical community and that is what they do. It is not one or two members, it is their community. They inspire nothing in me but disdain. If they chose to be normal Christians that would be great, but they're not.



1) Spare me the dishonour of suggesting I'd be too offended by yet another anti-Zionist Jewish group
2) They love Israel in exactly the same way other evangelicals do



They're Christians in Jews' clothing (or so they aim for). I have no problem with, f/e, Methodists of Jewish parentage.

Interesting discussion. One of my good friends is a messianic jew. But not genetically Jewish... baffles me.

[Oneeye]

The path of righteousness begins and ends with sole fide. As the Lord hung upon the cross, He turned toward the heavens and announced to the world: "It is finished."

[Dna8]

Still searching for some Jewish heritage.. no luck yet.. will keep trying and keep you posted.

[Longbowman]

I see. So it's the lack of transparency in their presentation of themselves, which I agree is a legitimate complaint. A Christian could argue, biblically, that he is a true Jew, but to do so without providing any of the background for that argument is not very honest. And honesty matters - or should matter - a great deal to someone claiming to be a follower of Jesus.

By the way, I'm not a Christian myself, just to be clear.

If you want to see yourselves as one of the inheritors of pre-Christian Judaism, I would obviously disagree, but I don't have a problem with it. However, the word 'Jew' in modern parlance does not mean that, and it is not what they are portraying themselves as. The word 'Christian' already encompasses the belief that the person to whom it applies is an adherent of an ideology that is a (not the) continuation of Judaism so calling yourself Jewish would be both unnecessary and deliberately misleading. In this case they go to efforts to portray themselves as Jews and as I say to convince others that they are Jews. Unlike other Christians they keep a not-so-convincing veneer of Jewish ritual to accompany their fundamentally Christian beliefset. As soon as they stop pretending to be Jews, I have no particular issue with them.

Interesting discussion. One of my good friends is a messianic jew. But not genetically Jewish... baffles me.

Most of them are like that. Christians who fetishise Jewish 'authenticity.'

I'm sure he's a great person but he's not Jewish in the slightest, he's a Christian who [99 times out of 100: not very well] attempts to practise what he views as Jewish ritual without adhering to any specifically Jewish theology. Nomenclature means nothing - messianics probably don't even realise that Rabbi is a pseudo-meaningless honorific and only Ashkenazim really even call their leaders by that name.

[Voskos]

I think I'm a jew from the lost tribes of israel. Anyone agree?
[1,] "Sicilian" "5.9572"
[2,] "South_Italian" "6.0446"
[3,] "Central_Greek_Thessaly" "6.5577"
[4,] "Ashkenazi" "7.8232"
[5,] "Italian_Abruzzo" "7.9589"
[6,] "Italian_Jewish_Sephardic" "11.6019"
[7,] "Algerian_Jewish" "11.9957"
[8,] "Albanian" "12.7787"
[9,] "Moroccan_Jew" "13.4443"
[10,] "Tunisian_Jewish" "14.9468"
[11,] "Libyan_Jewish" "15.3775"