What to Sicilians, Ashkenazi and Lebanese people? Here is my theory.

[Sp_loa]

Can someone explain this situation to me?

I don’t understand why people think Ashkenazi are half north Italian just because Gedmatch gives that module.
Sephardim Italian Ancestry is clearly from the south. That’s what 23andme usually shows in recent locations of ancestry features for Sephardim.
and also Sephardim sometimes get dozens of gentile Italian matches from Campania, Puglia, Sicily and Calabria.

And when it comes to South Italians-
I don’t think South Italians are half levantine half North Italian. They just plot this way, but even bulgarian can plot as Romanian+levant and that doesn’t make it true. Sicilians also plot as 70% Levantine+30% Scottish, is it ture? obviously not.

Phoenician influences on puglia, campania or even Sicily were minoric to non existing depending on the region. Look at this map of Phoenician colonies vs Greek colonies-
map of Phoenician (in yellow) and Greek colonies (red)



Greek influences however were very strong. South Italian obviously are mainly Greek (I'd guess links to peloponnese) with a bit of MENA (around 15%) from Phoenicians and Tunisians. They also have bits Roman and sometimes Norman blood, but obviously mainly Greek (the MENA south shifts them to a more dodecanese like components).
I don't think they are half lombard half Lebanese, it's just doesn't make sense with the history of the region.
I don’t understand how one can think Campanians are half Lebanese! Think rationally.

If Italian DNA of Ashkenazi is the same as the Italian DNA of Sephardim then it's South Italian. There is also a levantine component and some central Europe (bits of Rhineland and some Slavic together at around 15-20% I guess) that balance the levant (North shift vs the South shift of the levant) and that’s why the plot with Sicilians if you ask me.

If anyone disagrees with me, I want to hear why.
Stop claiming Sicilians are half MENA. They are mainly European East med with bits of MENA, not near half. To me South Italians are European in any possible way!

[Dna8]

I imagine that the Mediterranean has allowed for novel genetical interrelationships.

[Sp_loa]

I imagine that the Mediterranean has allowed for novel genetical interrelationships.

Agree but claiming Campanians and Apulians are 50% Lebanese is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard.

[Dna8]

Agree but claiming Campanians and Apulians are 50% Lebanese is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard.

I'll leave the genetical to the geneticists.

Nice thread.

[Antinoo]

Sicilians and Southern Italians cluster with Europe not with the middle East. 23andme is amateur stuff, well-done DNA analysis don’t show any significant MENA presence...

Italian Genetics( includes sicilians):

Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.
(Plaza et al. 2003; Romano et al. 2003)

Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians’ even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere, but a single sub-Saharan African E(xE3b) sequence was found in the first study’s sample of 416 (0.2%), and six were observed in the second study’s sample of 746 (0.8%). The total is therefore a minuscule 0.6%, which decreases to 0.4% if only Southern Italians are considered and 0% if only Sicilians are considered. Again, these are normal levels of admixture for European populations (e.g. Austrians were found to have 0.8% E(xE3b) by Brion et al. 2004). (Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2004)

An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a “line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon,” which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.”
(Simoni et al. 1999)

Simoni et al. (1999) “divide the Mediterranean area into 2 large clusters, a northern cluster and a southern cluster,” noting that “the existence of sharp genetic differences between the northern and southern coasts means that gene flow was more the exception than the rule.” This is seen as “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.” Samples in this study include Middle Easterners and North Africans (southern coast), and Italians from the mainland and islands (northern coast). [10]

A 2013 study by Peristera Paschou et al. confirms that the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a strong barrier to gene flow through geographic isolation following initial settlements. Samples from (Northern) Italy, Tuscany, Sicily and Sardinia are closest to other Southern Europeans from Iberia, the Balkans and Greece, who are in turn closest to the Neolithic migrants that spread farming throughout Europe, represented here by the Cappadocian sample from Anatolia. But there hasn't been any significant admixture from the Middle East or North Africa into Italy and the rest of Southern Europe since then.

Kandil et al. (1999) have analyzed populations on both sides of the Mediterranean sea, finding that “the major genetic differentiation axis in the Mediterranean basin is a north-south axis”, which “clearly differentiates the North African and Middle Eastern populations from the European populations. … As expected, the highest distances are shown by the European-North African comparisons [while] the lowest genetic distances correspond to intra-European comparisons.” Included on the ‘European’ side are mainland Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians. [11]

Vona et al. (1998), in a study on western Sicilians, conclude that “the genetic differentiation of the population of Trapani [a former Carthaginian center] and the populations of southern Italy appears quite clear cut from the populations of North Africa. Our analysis seems, therefore, not to confirm the existence of an evident genic flow [from] the Northern African populations.” The study also notes that “Palermo [a Phoenician city and later Moorish capital] lies close to Calabria” in a “branch group[ing] all the Italian and European populations” together, separate from the North African ones.

Scozzari et al. (2001) identify a Y-chromosome mutation that “diverged from the ancestor HG25.1 somewhere in North Africa a few thousand years ago”, and is thus indicative of recent gene flow from North African males. The authors report that the marker “HG25.2 was seen at generally low frequencies in Spain, France, and Italy” (0.8% in Sicilians).

Cruciani et al. (2004) confirm the above, using the frequencies of ‘Berber’ mutations (now labeled E-M81 and E-M78β) in large sample populations to estimate that North African paternal admixture within the past 5000 years amounts to 1.5% in Northern Italians, 2.2% in Central Italians, 0% in Southern Italians, 1.4% in Sardinians and 1.4% in Sicilians.

Capelli et al. (2005) identify the Y-chromosome marker J*(xJ2) (or J-M267) as possible evidence of modern Arab/Semitic, rather than prehistoric Neolithic, gene flow from the Near East. This lineage exists at the low frequency of 5.2% in Sicilians, with no significant difference between the eastern and western halves of the island.

Romano et al. (2003) detect sub-Saharan (Negroid) mtDNA sequences at a rate of 0.65% in a Sicilian sample of 465, which is comparable to admixture levels for Western and Northern Europe. Asian mtDNA is observed at a frequency of 2.2%, again consistent with Northern and Eastern European admixture levels.

[Sp_loa]

Sicilians and Southern Italians cluster with Europe not with the middle East. 23andme is amateur stuff, well-done DNA analysis don’t show any significant MENA presence...

Italian Genetics( includes sicilians):




An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a “line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon,” which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.”
(Simoni et al. 1999)

Simoni et al. (1999) “divide the Mediterranean area into 2 large clusters, a northern cluster and a southern cluster,” noting that “the existence of sharp genetic differences between the northern and southern coasts means that gene flow was more the exception than the rule.” This is seen as “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.” Samples in this study include Middle Easterners and North Africans (southern coast), and Italians from the mainland and islands (northern coast). [10]

A 2013 study by Peristera Paschou et al. confirms that the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a strong barrier to gene flow through geographic isolation following initial settlements. Samples from (Northern) Italy, Tuscany, Sicily and Sardinia are closest to other Southern Europeans from Iberia, the Balkans and Greece, who are in turn closest to the Neolithic migrants that spread farming throughout Europe, represented here by the Cappadocian sample from Anatolia. But there hasn't been any significant admixture from the Middle East or North Africa into Italy and the rest of Southern Europe since then.

Kandil et al. (1999) have analyzed populations on both sides of the Mediterranean sea, finding that “the major genetic differentiation axis in the Mediterranean basin is a north-south axis”, which “clearly differentiates the North African and Middle Eastern populations from the European populations. … As expected, the highest distances are shown by the European-North African comparisons [while] the lowest genetic distances correspond to intra-European comparisons.” Included on the ‘European’ side are mainland Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians. [11]

Vona et al. (1998), in a study on western Sicilians, conclude that “the genetic differentiation of the population of Trapani [a former Carthaginian center] and the populations of southern Italy appears quite clear cut from the populations of North Africa. Our analysis seems, therefore, not to confirm the existence of an evident genic flow [from] the Northern African populations.” The study also notes that “Palermo [a Phoenician city and later Moorish capital] lies close to Calabria” in a “branch group[ing] all the Italian and European populations” together, separate from the North African ones.

Scozzari et al. (2001) identify a Y-chromosome mutation that “diverged from the ancestor HG25.1 somewhere in North Africa a few thousand years ago”, and is thus indicative of recent gene flow from North African males. The authors report that the marker “HG25.2 was seen at generally low frequencies in Spain, France, and Italy” (0.8% in Sicilians).

Cruciani et al. (2004) confirm the above, using the frequencies of ‘Berber’ mutations (now labeled E-M81 and E-M78β) in large sample populations to estimate that North African paternal admixture within the past 5000 years amounts to 1.5% in Northern Italians, 2.2% in Central Italians, 0% in Southern Italians, 1.4% in Sardinians and 1.4% in Sicilians.

Capelli et al. (2005) identify the Y-chromosome marker J*(xJ2) (or J-M267) as possible evidence of modern Arab/Semitic, rather than prehistoric Neolithic, gene flow from the Near East. This lineage exists at the low frequency of 5.2% in Sicilians, with no significant difference between the eastern and western halves of the island.

Romano et al. (2003) detect sub-Saharan (Negroid) mtDNA sequences at a rate of 0.65% in a Sicilian sample of 465, which is comparable to admixture levels for Western and Northern Europe. Asian mtDNA is observed at a frequency of 2.2%, again consistent with Northern and Eastern European admixture levels.

23andme actually supports your claim. It's a very good ancestry test, the best one. I mentioned 23andme because it gives south Italian genetic matches to Jews, which make sense as I think Jews mixed with South italians and not with North Italians.
Thank you very much!
Sikeliot with his "All south Italians are half lebanese half lombard and therefore look Semitic". It didn't make sense from the first place.

South Italians are East-Med (Europeans) with just small MENA blood (around 15% which is nothing). Europeans just like everyone else in Europe is! If they are not European then Greeks aren't too, and that's no one sane will say.

[Sp_loa]

People do you agree with me or not?

[Haider]

They are obviously not 50% 'Lebanese', but they have around 20% post-Neolithic Middle Eastern admixture. Askhenazim are mostly Roman.

[Sp_loa]

They are obviously not 50% 'Lebanese', but they have around 20% post-Neolithic Middle Eastern admixture. Askhenazim are mostly Roman.

Even if Ashkenazim are Roman (Lazio) Rome is Southern Italy Genetically:
Gedmatch from Rome:
ERSON #1:

Eurogenes:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.18
2 West_Med 17.5
3 Atlantic 17.02
4 West_Asian 14
5 North_Sea 8.13
6 Baltic 5.2
7 Red_Sea 3.22
8 Eastern_Euro 2.56
9 Oceanian 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.49
2 West_Sicilian 6.35
3 Central_Greek 6.55
4 East_Sicilian 6.89
5 Italian_Abruzzo 7.21
6 Italian_Jewish 7.49
7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.02
8 Algerian_Jewish 8.56
9 Ashkenazi 9.65
10 Greek 10.18
11 Tunisian_Jewish 12.04
12 Tuscan 12.09
13 Greek_Thessaly 12.54
14 Cyprian 14.02
15 Libyan_Jewish 15.05
16 Lebanese_Muslim 18.13
17 North_Italian 18.26
18 Bulgarian 18.5
19 Turkish 19.68
20 Syrian 19.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.5% Cyprian + 34.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.72
2 73.3% West_Sicilian + 26.7% Cyprian @ 4.04
3 72.4% South_Italian + 27.6% West_Sicilian @ 4.09
4 66.3% Cyprian + 33.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.13
5 68% Cyprian + 32% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.16
6 69.2% Cyprian + 30.8% Southwest_French @ 4.2
7 64.5% Cyprian + 35.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.21
8 82.4% West_Sicilian + 17.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.24
9 73.8% Cyprian + 26.2% French_Basque @ 4.29
10 97% South_Italian + 3% French_Basque @ 4.34
11 64.9% Cyprian + 35.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.34
12 96% South_Italian + 4% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.36
13 57.1% Cyprian + 42.9% North_Italian @ 4.38
14 66.7% Cyprian + 33.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.39
15 96.7% South_Italian + 3.3% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.39
16 96.5% South_Italian + 3.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.4
17 97% South_Italian + 3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.41
18 96.8% South_Italian + 3.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.42
19 97.4% South_Italian + 2.6% Southwest_French @ 4.42
20 92.4% South_Italian + 7.6% Greek @ 4.43


MDLP:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.80
2 European_Early_Farmers 25.96
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.83
4 Near_East 9.66
5 South_Central_Asian 9.32
6 North_African 5.59


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.740780
2 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 5.023220
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.301664
4 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 6.103673
5 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.435147
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 6.694051
7 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 6.848995
8 Maltese_ @ 7.081935
9 French_Jew_ @ 7.847890
10 Ashkenazi_ @ 8.380787
11 Cretan_ @ 8.853014
12 Romanian_Jew_ @ 9.404002
13 Sicilian_Center_ @ 9.846186
14 Italian_South_ @ 9.979024
15 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 10.110147
16 Greek_Athens_ @ 10.209079
17 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 10.575519
18 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 10.605286
19 Central_Greek_ @ 10.866992
20 Greek_ @ 11.108239


Ashkenazi Jews are Southern Italian (even if Roman)+ Rhineland Slavic Levantine.
Sephardi Jews vary by country. The most European North African Sephardim from lets say Oran or Tetouan (so called Andalusi Spanish speaking Jews) are mix of Iberia, Southern Italy, Berber and Levantine.

[Leto]

I don't know. A study said Ashkenazim are about half European and like 2/3 of the European is Southern. That's all I know.