stronger Germanic influence, Finland or Slovenia?

**Peterski** · 05-22-2019, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Germanin

Don't make me laugh

The percentage of R1a in Graz is from this study (42.9%): http://www.jogg.info/pages/41/Wiik.pdf

Graz is a toponym of Slavic origin (Gradec) and the density of Slavic toponyms is high in this area:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradec

**Peterski** · 05-22-2019, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Germanin

even hungarians have no such % slavic haplo and Hungary is more slavic than Austria.

It depends on study. Apparently there must be big regional differences within Hungary, figures from studies differ depending on where they collected samples.

In Battaglia 2008 study they found 57% of R1a in Hungary (sample size was moderate, 53 persons): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

Link to study: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008249

=====

Semino 2000 study, here they found even 60% of R1a in Hungary (sample size 45 persons): https://web.archive.org/web/20031125...v290_p1155.pdf

=====

On the other hand, Völgyi 2008 found only 24% of R1a in Hungary, Rosser 2000 only 22%, Tambets 2004 only 20%.

How can studies for the same country have such big differences, 20% up to 60%?

Certainly it means that there must be very big regional differences within Hungary.

**Alenka** · 05-22-2019, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić

Yeah but not on Eurogenes, only on MDLP project who don't have that useful components to compare.

Can you post your guys MDLP K23b and PuntDNAL K15 results? And please include both single and mixed population sharing.

**Peterski** · 05-22-2019, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Germanin

(...)

Before the Ostsiedlung, East Germany could be even around 65% R1a if we assume they were like Sorbs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Population_genetics

Here are frequencies for black data points from the map posted before by Ayetooey:

Sorbs in Lusatia (Saxony and Brandenburg) ----------------------------- 64% R1a (n=235)
Germans in Brandenburg an der Havel (Brandenburg) ------------------ 50% R1a (n=14)
Germans in Dessau–Roßlau (Saxony-Anhalt) ---------------------------- 43% R1a (n=7)
Germans in Chemnitz (Saxony) ------------------------------------------ 40% R1a (n=10)
Germans iin Dresden (Saxony) ------------------------------------------- 33% R1a (n=large)
Germans in Halle an der Saale* (Saxony-Anhalt) ----------------------- 30% R1a (n=234*)
Germans in Leipzig (Saxony) ----------------------------------------------27% R1a (n=144)

*Sample size 234 includes only people with surnames of Germanic origin, among whom R1a was 30%.

The total sample size was 419 (including 185 with surnames of Slavic origin and they had more of R1a).

=====

North-Eastern Germany has a lower share of R1a than South-Eastern Germany:

City of Rostock (Slavic origin toponym) ----------------------- 32,4% R1a (n=96)
City of Greifswald (Germanic toponym) ----------------------- 19,2% R1a (n=104)

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, average (FTDNA sample) -------- 25,8% R1a (n=31)

Frequency correlates with Slavic toponyms (more Slavic toponyms = more R1a).

**~~Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić~~** · 05-22-2019, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Alenka

Can you post your guys MDLP K23b and PuntDNAL K15 results? And please include both single and mixed population sharing.

On your service maa'm.

That guy I posted didn't transfer his kit to new gedmatch, but I got two other fully Slovenian DNA relatives to show.

Number 1

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 41.36
2 Caucasian 29.32
3 European_Early_Farmers 19.61
4 Ancestral_Altaic 3.44
5 Near_East 1.8
6 South_Central_Asian 1.38
7 Austronesian 1.22
8 North_African 0.85
9 Australoid 0.62
10 Melano_Polynesian 0.21
11 South_East_Asian 0.11
12 Khoisan 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian ( ) 3.54
2 Slovenian ( ) 3.57
3 Hungarian_Budapest ( ) 4.39
4 Austrian ( ) 5.73
5 Serb_Serbia ( ) 5.93
6 Czech ( ) 6.05
7 Slovak ( ) 7.23
8 Croat ( ) 7.44
9 Serb_BH ( ) 7.6
10 Bosnian ( ) 7.99
11 Montenegrian ( ) 8.52
12 Kashub ( ) 8.81
13 Croat_BH ( ) 8.83
14 Ukrainian_West ( ) 9.49
15 German ( ) 9.74
16 German_East ( ) 9.78
17 Sorb ( ) 10
18 Italian_North ( ) 10.56
19 German-Volga ( ) 10.63
20 Bulgarian ( ) 11.35

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.2% Croat ( ) + 23.8% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 1.97
2 65.3% Croat_BH ( ) + 34.7% Belgian ( ) @ 2
3 70.7% Croat ( ) + 29.3% Swede ( ) @ 2.06
4 73% Croat ( ) + 27% Norwegian_East ( ) @ 2.09
5 75.9% Serb_BH ( ) + 24.1% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 2.14
6 70.3% Serb_BH ( ) + 29.7% Swede ( ) @ 2.15
7 70.8% Croat_BH ( ) + 29.2% English_Kent_GBR ( ) @ 2.15
8 73.2% Croat_BH ( ) + 26.8% British ( ) @ 2.2
9 69.5% Croat ( ) + 30.5% Belgian ( ) @ 2.22
10 72.2% Croat_BH ( ) + 27.8% English_Cornwall_GBR ( ) @ 2.24
11 62.2% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 37.8% Italian_Bergamo ( ) @ 2.24
12 68.9% Croat ( ) + 31.1% Dane ( ) @ 2.25
13 65.7% Croat_BH ( ) + 34.3% Frisian ( ) @ 2.27
14 77.3% Croat ( ) + 22.7% Icelandic ( ) @ 2.27
15 79.2% Croat ( ) + 20.8% Orcadian ( ) @ 2.29
16 72.7% Serb_BH ( ) + 27.3% Norwegian_East ( ) @ 2.3
17 66.8% Croat ( ) + 33.2% Dutch ( ) @ 2.31
18 76.7% Croat ( ) + 23.3% British ( ) @ 2.31
19 67.9% Bosnian ( ) + 32.1% Belgian ( ) @ 2.31
20 74.2% Croat ( ) + 25.8% North_European ( ) @ 2.33

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_European 55.61
2 Mediterranean 27.36
3 Caucasian 9.47
4 SW_Asian 3.72
5 Horn_Of_Africa 1.78
6 Siberian 1.26
7 Omo_River 0.59
8 Beringian 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Austrian 2.5
2 Slovenian 2.74
3 Hungarian 3.05
4 Irish 3.33
5 Orcadian 3.37
6 North_German 3.84
7 English 4.1
8 Croatian 4.64
9 Scottish 4.79
10 Norwegian 5.03
11 Utahn_White 5.69
12 South_German 6.04
13 Swedish 6.68
14 Serbian 9.02
15 French 9.3
16 Polish 9.47
17 Bosnian 13.26
18 Macedonian 14.79
19 Mordovian 15.03
20 Russian 15.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89.4% Swedish + 10.6% Samaritian @ 1.27
2 88.9% Swedish + 11.1% Palestinian @ 1.45
3 89.2% Swedish + 10.8% Jordanian @ 1.57
4 88.8% Swedish + 11.2% Lebanese @ 1.64
5 95.3% North_German + 4.7% Saudi @ 1.67
6 89.5% Swedish + 10.5% Egyptian @ 1.67
7 57.5% Belarusian + 42.5% Italian @ 1.68
8 80% Polish + 20% Sicilian @ 1.7
9 89.8% Swedish + 10.2% Druze @ 1.71
10 89.2% Swedish + 10.8% Iraqi_Jew @ 1.72
11 89.2% Swedish + 10.8% Syrian @ 1.72
12 79.4% Polish + 20.6% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 1.75
13 73.8% Polish + 26.2% Albanian @ 1.76
14 84.8% Swedish + 15.2% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 1.76
15 89% Swedish + 11% Cypriot @ 1.77
16 81.1% Polish + 18.9% Sephardic_Jew @ 1.78
17 66.5% Polish + 33.5% Montenegrin @ 1.78
18 86.1% Swedish + 13.9% Sephardic_Jew @ 1.79
19 94.6% North_German + 5.4% Bedouin_A @ 1.8
20 89.5% Swedish + 10.5% Libyan @ 1.81

Number 2

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 42.57
2 Caucasian 23.8
3 European_Early_Farmers 19.17
4 Ancestral_Altaic 4.64
5 South_Central_Asian 4.01
6 Near_East 2.41
7 Melano_Polynesian 0.98
8 Australoid 0.79
9 Tungus-Altaic 0.73
10 East_Siberian 0.46
11 South_Indian 0.34
12 South_East_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 German ( ) 4.61
2 Swede_Saami ( ) 5.56
3 Austrian ( ) 5.58
4 North_German ( ) 5.73
5 German_East ( ) 6.62
6 German-Volga ( ) 7.2
7 Dane ( ) 7.32
8 Dutch ( ) 7.43
9 South_German ( ) 8
10 Hungarian ( ) 8.24
11 Slovenian ( ) 8.84
12 Swede ( ) 9
13 Finn_West ( ) 9.35
14 Czech ( ) 9.52
15 Hungarian_Budapest ( ) 9.63
16 Slovak ( ) 9.79
17 Kashub ( ) 9.86
18 Belgian ( ) 10.78
19 Frisian ( ) 11.08
20 Sorb ( ) 11.25

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.8% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 40.2% Orcadian ( ) @ 1.88
2 50.1% Swede_Saami ( ) + 49.9% Austrian ( ) @ 1.92
3 55.6% Belgian ( ) + 44.4% Russian_Meshtchyora ( ) @ 1.98
4 53.6% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 46.4% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 2.01
5 58% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 42% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) @ 2.03
6 50.2% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 49.8% CEU ( ) @ 2.03
7 51.4% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 48.6% British ( ) @ 2.03
8 61% Slovak ( ) + 39% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 2.04
9 66.8% Slovak ( ) + 33.2% Orcadian ( ) @ 2.04
10 56.5% Belgian ( ) + 43.5% Russian-West ( ) @ 2.09
11 55.1% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 44.9% Orcadian ( ) @ 2.1
12 62.2% Slovak ( ) + 37.8% Icelandic ( ) @ 2.11
13 65.1% Slovak ( ) + 34.9% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) @ 2.13
14 50.7% Russian_South ( ) + 49.3% English_Cornwall_GBR ( ) @ 2.13
15 64.2% Belgian ( ) + 35.8% Mordovian ( ) @ 2.14
16 57.7% Dane ( ) + 42.3% Slovak ( ) @ 2.14
17 50.4% British ( ) + 49.6% Ukrainian ( ) @ 2.15
18 52.2% Swede ( ) + 47.8% Slovak ( ) @ 2.16
19 64.4% Belgian ( ) + 35.6% Russian_Center ( ) @ 2.17
20 50.8% Ukrainian_East ( ) + 49.2% British ( ) @ 2.17

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_European 58.02
2 Mediterranean 25.67
3 Caucasian 8.41
4 SW_Asian 3.27
5 Beringian 1.28
6 Siberian 0.95
7 Horn_Of_Africa 0.76
8 S_Indian 0.68
9 Oceanian 0.67
10 Omo_River 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 3.11
2 Slovenian 3.4
3 Norwegian 3.41
4 Austrian 3.56
5 Orcadian 4.06
6 Swedish 4.28
7 Hungarian 4.39
8 Irish 4.53
9 Scottish 4.68
10 English 5.12
11 Croatian 6.49
12 Polish 6.69
13 Utahn_White 7.84
14 South_German 8.29
15 Serbian 11.65
16 French 11.74
17 Russian 12.54
18 Mordovian 12.55
19 Belarusian 12.6
20 Karelian 13.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.9% Swedish + 6.1% Bedouin_A @ 1.38
2 93.8% Swedish + 6.2% Yemenese @ 1.48
3 93.3% Swedish + 6.7% Syrian @ 1.49
4 93.3% Swedish + 6.7% Jordanian @ 1.5
5 93.3% Swedish + 6.7% Iraqi_Jew @ 1.54
6 93.1% Swedish + 6.9% Lebanese @ 1.6
7 93.3% Swedish + 6.7% Palestinian @ 1.66
8 75.1% Polish + 24.9% Bulgarian @ 1.7
9 60.6% South_German + 39.4% Belarusian @ 1.71
10 50.8% Swedish + 49.2% Hungarian @ 1.74
11 51.8% French + 48.2% Belarusian @ 1.76
12 93.8% Swedish + 6.2% Druze @ 1.76
13 85.7% Polish + 14.3% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 1.77
14 65.5% Belarusian + 34.5% Italian @ 1.77
15 73.1% Polish + 26.9% Macedonian @ 1.79
16 86.2% Polish + 13.8% Sicilian @ 1.8
17 86.9% Polish + 13.1% Sephardic_Jew @ 1.81
18 93.9% Swedish + 6.1% Yemenite_Jew @ 1.81
19 93.7% Swedish + 6.3% Samaritian @ 1.84
20 81.9% Polish + 18.1% Albanian @ 1.85

Second dude has very havy German admixture, but his names are Slovene. First dude is more typical for sure.

**Peterski** · 05-22-2019, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Germanin

Paternal origin of Austria: 46,5% celto-germanic, 26% slavic
Paternal origin of Slovenia: 58,5% slavic, 28,5% celto-germanic

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

Slovenes and austrians are clearly different population and majority of austrians have no slavic origin, they aren't german speaker slovenes.

Of course, but Austrians = basically a mix of Bavarians, Slovenes and few other groups.

And you were also surprised that Germans who live around Sorbs have 30-40% R1a.

But Sorbs have 64%. If their German neighbours are a mix of Germanized Sorbs and West German settlers in 50:50 proportion, then they should have ca. 32% of R1a (64 divided by half). Which is close to what they have (although e.g. in Chemnitz it is 40% and in Leipzig it is 27%, while in Dresden it is 33%).