Eastern European Dna in the Iberian Peninsula, From the Goths ?

[steven tipton]

Europedia ~ "The Visigothic Kingdom was the larger and longer lived than the Suebi Kingdom, and yet the Goths do not seem to have had any significant genetic impact on the Iberian population - at least not in terms of Germanic Y-DNA. The reason might simply be that they were no longer a predominantly Germanic tribe. After all, the Goths had lived for many centuries in Eastern Europe and nearly two more centuries in the Balkans before invading Italy, Gaul and Iberia. They could have assimilated a lot of non-Germanic people on the way, notably R1a and I2a1b Slavs and predominantly E1b1b, I2a1b and J2 Balkanic people. It would be pretty complicated at the moment to untangle the Balkanic E1b1b and J2 from all the others (Neolithic, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jewish, Arabic) found in Iberia. But it is remarkably easy to check the Eastern European I2a1b (M423) and R1a (M458 and Z280). No historical migration could account for Slavic haplogroups in Iberia apart from the East European populations assimilated by the Goths before the 4th century. The I2a Project at FTDNA has three M423-Dinaric-N and one M423-Isles-B2 from Spain, while the R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project has four Spanish Z280 (CTS1211+) members."

[Peterski]

I think it can also be from actual Slavs, read these articles:

http://michalw.narod.ru/SlavicSpain.html

https://slavicchronicles.com/history...m-spainpart-1/

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/...-spain-part-2/

They were even in Morocco:

http://www.messagetoeagle.com/archae...or-africa/amp/

[MagnusDark]

Europedia ~ "The Visigothic Kingdom was the larger and longer lived than the Suebi Kingdom, and yet the Goths do not seem to have had any significant genetic impact on the Iberian population - at least not in terms of Germanic Y-DNA. The reason might simply be that they were no longer a predominantly Germanic tribe. After all, the Goths had lived for many centuries in Eastern Europe and nearly two more centuries in the Balkans before invading Italy, Gaul and Iberia. They could have assimilated a lot of non-Germanic people on the way, notably R1a and I2a1b Slavs and predominantly E1b1b, I2a1b and J2 Balkanic people. It would be pretty complicated at the moment to untangle the Balkanic E1b1b and J2 from all the others (Neolithic, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jewish, Arabic) found in Iberia. But it is remarkably easy to check the Eastern European I2a1b (M423) and R1a (M458 and Z280). No historical migration could account for Slavic haplogroups in Iberia apart from the East European populations assimilated by the Goths before the 4th century. The I2a Project at FTDNA has three M423-Dinaric-N and one M423-Isles-B2 from Spain, while the R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project has four Spanish Z280 (CTS1211+) members."

Theres also a new Spanish user on 23andme thats M458+ as well.

[Peterski]

Theres also a new Spanish user on 23andme thats M458+ as well.

Rethel (a Polish Apricity user who is now banned) belongs to a very basal/ancestral clade of M458.

Loki should unban him maybe he will tell us something new about M458.

[MagnusDark]

Rethel (a Polish Apricity user who is now banned) belongs to a very basal clade of M458.

Loki should unban him maybe he will tell us something new about M458.

He's kind of a crazy and outlandish. Like a less gramatically inclined Bosniensis lol. I do know almost all basal M458 outside of some Nogai cases were all from Poland.

[Peterski]

I do know almost all basal M458 outside of some Nogai cases were all from Poland.

What do you make of this? That the Proto-Slavic homeland was probably in Poland?

PS:

Nogai M458 could be from some kidnapped Poles during the 1600s in Tatar raids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatar_...t_Slavic_lands

Theres also a new Spanish user on 23andme thats M458+ as well.

BTW my closest Y-DNA matches are also Spanish, but under R1b-DF27 of course.

And my mtDNA - W6a - was also discovered among Visigoths in Spain ironically:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

[MagnusDark]

What do you make of this? That the Proto-Slavic homeland was probably in Poland?

PS:

Nogai M458 could be from some kidnapped Poles during the 1600s in Tatar raids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatar_...t_Slavic_lands

I think its more likely what you proposed some time back. Something about where M458/Z280/I2a1b converged forming the Proto-Slavs. Personally, given it's west to east cline, I think that M458 in the Iron Age was Eastern Lusatian. For all we know, Lusatian could have been an extinct indo-european tongue related to Proto-Balto-Slavic. I think at some point in the iron age, when M458 experienced near extinction, that the survivors in the border regions where Z280/I2a1b converge, formed a sort of symbiosis where the descendants of M458 became part of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis and had a demographic boom(expanding out once again) with the Slavic migration. It could explain why it has such a Western pull compared to the other 2. Theres also alot of genetic continuity in Poland between the Bronze age and now.

With regard to Nogai, from another user on Anthro, these Nogai have no known recent ancestry. It would have had to be a drifter heading east, or even further back than the time frame you suggest, in order for it to have been absorbed among them.

I know some say there are more M458 in Russia than in Central Europe. However, quantity doesn't mean much. After all Russia has some of the largest populations in the world. Naturally they will have more M458 individuals. What matters is percentage of the population and its diversity. In the case of M458 it seems from East Germany to Poland, and South-West Belarus, including Hungary, Czech Republic, and Slovakia to have the highest representation and diversity.

Either M458 was an extinct indo european language related to Proto-Balto-Slavic, or, some corded population that bridged between corded germans and corded balto-slavs.

This is a picture I put together. It is kind of like something you suggested in the past for how the lineages all converged.

[MagnusDark]

My guess is also that since basal M458 is not popping up everywhere Slavs migrated, that, this could lend credence to the idea M458 was in Poland at least since the Iron-Age, and some basal M458 managed to survive and remain in Poland up until the modern day. Even though L1029 formed during the Lusatian time frame, given the huge gap in formation/TMRCA the survivors of L1029 could have just been absorbed in the Balto-Slavic zone, participating in the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis, and later Slavic migration.