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Thread: Can apostasy in Christianity be forgiven?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
    Thanks to everyone (and especially Wanderer) for the replies. This will be my last post on this site. A lapse in faith (which is what I had) is not a permanent fall from grace. Hebrews 6:4-6 no longer bothers me at all. There are several ways one can interpret that passage. I haven’t studied the text in depth (I need to at some point), but I believe in the argumentum ad absurdum interpretation of that passage.
    Although I, myself, have waffled in this very thread (it takes some time to come to maturity – I’ve only been a Christian since January 2019), I would strongly urge you to reconsider this view. The problem is, it just doesn’t work, so this interpretation really won’t be a steady foundation for you going forward. There’s just no contextual reason to suppose that the warnings in the book of Hebrews (particularly the ones in chapters 6 and 10) are hypothetical scenarios involving nonexistent persons. The book was written to an audience of Jewish Christians that was very much tempted to return to temple religion to avoid persecution. Furthermore, the language in both of these passages includes descriptions that can only refer to regenerate, born again believers: “partakers of the Holy Ghost” in Heb 6 and “the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified” in Heb 10.

    But you’ve correctly cited passages that do indeed speak strongly to the believer’s eternal security in Christ. And it’s truly by these exceeding great and precious promises that we’re made partakers of the divine nature, as Peter says in the first chapter of his second epistle. We have no confidence in the flesh. And there is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ. We are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

    So, simply put, the warnings in the book of Hebrews are directed to Jewish Christians, but they relate not to the threat of eternal condemnation (and impossibility for one who has received the earnest of the Spirit and is sealed for the day of redemption), but judgment coming upon the Jews in 70 AD. I went into more detail about this in my post from 1/18/2020. And I’d even supplement what I wrote to draw attention to the fact that the "thorns of briers" of Heb 6:8 can be found in Isaiah 5:6 - the prophecy here in Isaiah is that God's unfruitful vineyard (Israel after the flesh) will be trodden down, just like Jesus said of the earthly Jerusalem (Luke 21:24). Likewise, Jesus cursed the fig tree, that it should bear no more fruit, the fig tree being Israel after the flesh (consider Luke 13:6-9).

    The Old Testament was a conditional covenant of works that did not necessarily relate to eternal life. The blessings and curses of the Law were for this life only. In fact, views differed in Judaism even about the afterlife itself. It's entirely possible that some who were cut off from Israel under the Law were nevertheless saved eternally by the election of grace. But once we get the view of the afterlife out of our focus, we can then see that the (temporal) curses of the Law were about to be poured out upon Israel after the flesh to the uttermost, as also spoken of in Deuteronomy 28, because they crucified the Son of God. Indeed, that's the essence of Paul's (and it was probably Paul's) argument here - how much sorer a punishment do you suppose one is worthy who has trodden underfoot the Son of God, when even those who despised Moses's law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. It's a lesser-to-greater argument, but eternal life is not in view here. Eternal life is assumed, by the clues I cited - and also consider that in Heb 10 the writer both talked about "fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" and then mentioned, "The Lord shall judge His people." So the temporal judgments include both the adversaries and the Lord's own people.

    Indeed, as stated in Heb 7:25, Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them. The writer of Hebrews doesn't just turn on that idea when he begins the warning in chapter 10 by saying, "[...] if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Obviously, the judgment in view has since shifted from the eternal (as concerning Jesus's priestly office and His ability to save to the uttermost) to the temporal law-curses and coming judgment upon the Jewish nation, which Christians were also given the opportunity to escape from (e.g., Jesus's words of finding an escape in the Olivet Discourse, Peter's exhortation in Acts to save yourselves from this untoward generation).

    I know you said this would be your last post, but feel free to reach out to me if you ever need any help with this or related issues concerning the faith in the future. I can also give you my email.

    God bless.

  2. #42
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    Sorry to bring this thread back. I really haven't been active here in a while, and it's been a while since this thread was active. I wish I hadn't said so much in this thread, because I really didn't know what I was talking about. TBH, I'm kind of embarrassed by it. As I noted in my post from July 2020, I've only been a Christian since January 2019. I had some things right, but ultimately I did not grasp the bigger picture as it concerns not only this verse, but also many others, as well as the parables of Jesus.

    But since Feb 2021, I have really come to a breakthrough in my understanding of these things, as God has shown me. I don't want to say exactly what this verse means, because, frankly, that's why Jesus spoke in parables. I just feel compelled to make this post to say that I did not correctly explain it. The most I'll say is this. I'll put a few verses out there, to whoever might be reading this with any legitimate worry, so that, if you have ears to hear, you might do so. Pay attention to each one, as I've listed each one for a reason... though you'll see this absolutely throughout the Bible. And, anyway, it's good if I say less and God says more:

    Eph 1:13-14
    1 John 5:16-17
    Matthew 10:33
    Matthew 13:47-50
    John 17:3
    John 11:25
    Deut 23:10-11
    Psalm 30:5
    Rev 7:9-17
    Romans 8:28-39

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