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Spot on. Most of my Irish ancestry hails from Donegal, and everyone on that side of the family (including me) has dark brown hair that actually approaches black - whereas I have some cousins that come from Wicklow (on the eastern coast) and they're all strawberry blonde. It's quite odd actually, to see so many people from that region having pale white skin and light blue eyes but then extremely dark hair. I wonder where it comes from?
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One of your links is from 2000 and the other isn't linking any genetic study but reading it I think it is related to the study that came out about 2006 from Oppenheimer who thought that ydna R1b was holed up in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge. He thought that R1b was native to Western Europe but we now know it is Bell Beaker and came from the Steppes. The Irish don't have any particular connection to the Spanish. I can discuss the genetics later but I'll link this study which involved one of the same men mentioned in one of the articles you have linked Prof Dan Bradley.
You need to read this and not old newspaper articles. Genetics has evolved at a very quick pace and a lot of studies came out around 2015 about the Bronze Age migrations from the Steppes but this study is on the Irish and only about 18 months old.
https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1007152
Irish are quite distant to Spanish in a European context and even their major subclades of R1b are not the same.
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I would agree with some of your points, but R1b is middle eastern and most associated with Iranian peoples. I is the only native male haplogroup in Europe today, the rest have gone extinct. R split from IJ much earlier. The links are old sure but I have not read anything lately that would debunk the Iberian Gaelic theory, I am sure its not that cut and dry, but surely R1b is not native to Ireland in any case.
"The R1b branch would have originated in eastern Anatolia and/or northern Mesopotamia/Syria during the Early Neolithic period, where they probably domesticated cattle and became primarily cattle herders. Then would have migrated to the western part of the Iranian plateau, crossed the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe in search for pasture for their cattle, where they mixed to some extent with I2a2 and R1a tribes that inhabited those lands. The maternal lineages of these Near Eastern R1b people would have included haplogroups H5a, H6, H8, H15, I1a1, J1b1a, K1a3, K2a6, U5, and some V subclades (like V15)."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/origi...rope.shtml#R1b
I would agree their ethnogenesis doe's not begin in Spain and their Steppe ancestry goes to further their claim that they descend from Scythian who entered West Europe from North Africa. I am saying they became Westernized in Spain and the Welsh are more Iberian Genetically. But there is a fair portion of Gaels that were probably Iberian that came along for the ride. They are about as Iberian as the Vandals were, but they are partially Iberian in their history none the less. The same way Turkish people are called Turks but not really Turks.
The advent of farming in Ireland lies at the temporal and geographical terminus of several thousand years of transition across Europe and seems to occur rapidly ∼ 3750 BC (47). The nature of this transition remains a long-standing archaeological controversy between proposals of migration by incoming farmers versus those of adoption of agriculture by indigenous Mesolithic populations (48⇓⇓–51). The Irish MN female farmer (3343–3020 cal. BC) from a Megalithic tomb in Ballynahatty near Belfast affords, to our knowledge, a first direct genetic view of the transition at Europe’s western edge. She displays predominant ancestry from early farmers that ultimately originated in migrating agriculturists from the Near East. This derivation is attested by her PCA and ADMIXTURE profile, her correlated allele frequencies with other Neolithic genomes, reflected in D statistics, and by her haplotypic affinity with modern southern Mediterranean populations such as Sardinians. Her early European farmer coefficient is estimated at ∼60%; an ancestry which is difficult to reconcile with extensive indigenous adoption of agriculture in Ireland only several hundred years earlier. She shares higher levels of genetic drift with Early and MN samples from Spain rather than those from Germany, supporting a link between the early farming cultures of Atlantic Europe and arguing for the possible passage of farming to Ireland via a southern coastal route rather than via the migrations through central Europe (2). A high affinity to Scandinavian farmer, Gok2 is more difficult to interpret as it is associated with the TRB (Funnelbeaker) culture whose origins are generally derived from Central European farming cultures but perhaps it is noteworthy that this later sample is also recovered from a Megalithic context.
https://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368
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You're linking a dna study that disagrees with what you have written. Oldest R1b-M269 which is the branch that nearly all Europeans descend from was found in Yamnaya not middle eastern and Iranian people. This is why all the R1b-M269 descended branches carries that Steppe component. The oldest R is from Siberia Ma'lta Boy. R1b-M269 is not native to Western Europe but only arrived in the Bronze Age and the people who brought it to Western Europe are Bell Beakers. These Bell Beakers replaced the populations of both Britain and Ireland by 93% (possibly more in some areas) but it was a near total population replacement. There was not much Neolithic population left in either Ireland or Britain. Nearly all of these Bell Beakers were R1b-L21.
This sounds too much like the Lebor Gabála Érenn which was fictional. We have genetics now and Irish don't show any Iberian nor North African. They show high Bell Beaker and those Bell Beakers are the ones that were the same as Dutch and British Bell Beakers. If they came via the route you say they don't show any of it in their genetics and no genetic study (including the one you posted supports that route). The Farmer population like Ballynahatty which is discussed in the linked study Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome is most similar to modern day Sardinians and Iberians but not to modern day Irish and this is because Ballynahatty hasn't contributed much to the present Irish genepool whereas the men that were the Rathlins have.I would agree their ethnogenesis doe's not begin in Spain and their Steppe ancestry goes to further their claim that they descend from Scythian who entered West Europe from North Africa. I am saying they became Westernized in Spain and the Welsh are more Iberian Genetically. But there is a fair portion of Gaels that were probably Iberian that came along for the ride. They are about as Iberian as the Vandals were, but they are partially Iberian in their history none the less. The same way Turkish people are called Turks but not really Turks.
Even looking at populations today you can see where they cluster. Irish would not be clustering with Dutch, Scandinavians etc if they had North African or even Iberian roots. No study supports this and you can even use models using the Global 25 which is a great tool for us novices. As I've said modern Irish aren't similar to Ballynahatty they share a lot more genes with Rathlin.
This is why that study you linked says this.
.We address this issue by using the first whole genome data from prehistoric Irish individuals. A Neolithic woman (3343–3020 cal BC) from a megalithic burial (10.3× coverage) possessed a genome of predominantly Near Eastern origin. She had some hunter–gatherer ancestry but belonged to a population of large effective size, suggesting a substantial influx of early farmers to the island. Three Bronze Age individuals from Rathlin Island (2026–1534 cal BC), including one high coverage (10.5×) genome, showed substantial Steppe genetic heritage indicating that the European population upheavals of the third millennium manifested all of the way from southern Siberia to the western ocean. This turnover invites the possibility of accompanying introduction of Indo-European, perhaps early Celtic, language. Irish Bronze Age haplotypic similarity is strongest within modern Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations, and several important genetic variants that today show maximal or very high frequencies in Ireland appear at this horizon. These include those coding for lactase persistence, blue eye color, Y chromosome R1b haplotypes, and the hemochromatosis C282Y allele; to our knowledge, the first detection of a known Mendelian disease variant in prehistory. These findings together suggest the establishment of central attributes of the Irish genome 4,000 y ago
In the paragraph above they mention this population turnover and that the modern Irish get most of their genetics from the Bronze Age Rathlin men rather than Ballynahatty.
Using G25 these are the populations that the Irish are closest to.
1 Irish:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.929
3 Irish:Average English_Averaged Averaged 1.122
5 Irish:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 1.334
6 Irish:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.39
8 Irish:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.399
11 Irish:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.589
15 Irish:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.659
26 Irish:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 1.818
154 Irish:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.701
168 Irish:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.762
236 Irish:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 3.076
Quite a big gap to the next closest pops.
And then there are these two recent studies.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4Using a reference of 6,760 European individuals and two ancient Irish genomes, we demonstrate high levels of North-West French-like and West Norwegian-like ancestry within Ireland. We show that that our ‘Gaelic’ Irish clusters present homogenous levels of ancient Irish ancestries. We additionally detect admixture events that provide evidence of Norse-Viking gene flow into Ireland, and reflect the Ulster Plantations. Our work informs both on Irish history, as well as the study of Mendelian and complex disease genetics involving populations of Irish ancestry.
https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...type=printableTo temporally anchor the major historical admixture events into Ireland we used GLOBETROTTER [23] with modern surrogate populations represented by 4,514 Europeans [24] and 1,973 individuals from the PoBI dataset [7], excluding individuals sampled from Northern Ireland. Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish genomes was best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans, with a significant singledate one-source admixture event overlapping the historical period of the Norse-Viking settlements in Ireland (p < 0.01; fit quality FQB > 0.985; Fig 6). This was recapitulated to varying degrees in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups within Ireland, with the strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded Viking settlement in Ireland was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and north Leinster/Ulster
(S5 Fig; S6 Table).
If you know nothing at all about genetics all you have to do is look at any dna plot or look at where a population clusters and what populations are closest. This will tell you a lot. Populations are closest to people that they share genetics with and this is always the case. I can't understand how people don't grasp this simple logic.
This is Ancestry's newest population plot. Take a look where populations plot and even looking at this plot you can see where there has been genetic barriers. Mountain barriers are much more effective at stopping gene flow than water.
Last edited by Grace O'Malley; 06-01-2019 at 05:46 PM.
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