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Thread: Irish Ancestors and the Mesolithic period

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    Genetics in this is old and has been shown not to be incorrect. The Rathlin paper hit this stuff on the head and of course the earlier mammoth paper from Haak about Massive Migration from the Steppes and R1b coming into Europe from that source. In fact nearly all Irish dna stems from the Bronze Age. The premise for those earlier tests was all wrong and if you notice he is only talking about ydna and mtdna. The glaring mistake is that they thought R1b was actually in Europe even in the Ice Age. There has been no R1b-M269 found even in the Neolithic. In Ireland for example all the neolithic ydna is I not R1b. R1b-M269 only shows up in the Bronze Age and in fact is much lower down the M269 tree as the earlier branches are in the East. Even the Rathlins that came to Ireland were already L21. They are just speaking of ydna here and not autosomal and their theory on ydna was incorrect.

    I like Barry Cunliffe but I hope he has updated his genetic information.
    I still think that celts from the west is the truth, it's likely the case that iron age europe included a myriad of psuedo/pre-celtic language dialects, but the dialect that became irish, celtiberian, gaulish, and welsh was from the atlantic coast about 4000 years ago

  2. #22
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    Irish are mostly descended from Caspian steppe pastoralists.

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    I lost all respect for Barry when he wrote the intro for that drooling retard Bob Quinn’s Atlantean theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator Biff View Post
    I lost all respect for Barry when he wrote the intro for that drooling retard Bob Quinn’s Atlantean theory.
    It's not exactly an endorsement, to be fair.
    One of the great joys of studying prehistory is that the subject is ever-changing. Every day, whether as the result of carefully directed research excavations or simply as chance finds made during construction work or farming, new evidence is pouring out of the ground. Some of it is spectacular and headline-grabbing but much is unsurprising and, let us be honest, superficially rather dull. Some years ago there was a revealing cartoon that showed an excavation with a pontificating archaeologist and a television team who were packing up in bored disgust. The archaeologist was saying, ‘No, no treasure but a host of fascinating detail about the socio-economic structure of the Iron Age’ – ourselves as others see us! But it is in these details and in the painstaking search for patterns in the data – and then for more data to help consolidate and expand the patterns – that the very basis of archaeological reconstruction lies. Upon these studies prehistory is written.

    Those of us who are ‘dirt-archaeologists’ spend a disproportionate amount of our lives struggling to contain the detail and may perhaps be forgiven for sometimes allowing our vision to be restricted by the edge of the trench or the strict chronological limits of the period we profess to specialize in. There is still, I believe, far too much chronological or regional blinkering in the approach of the discipline. Eighty years ago the great French historian Lucien Febvre, one of the founders of the Annales School of History, wrote in characteristic style, ‘historians be geographers, be jurists too and sociologists and psychologists’. He went on to encourage us to abattre les cloissons (smash down the compartments). As a student, my own rather pathetic response to the clarion call was to smuggle into the pages of the august Proceedings of the Prehistoric Society a description of some Roman potsherds – then an unthinkable intrusion.

    The Annales School, and in particular the writing of its most famous proponent, Ferdinand Braudel, has had a profound effect on the work of archaeologists and prehistorians. Braudel has taught us to think in terms of different rhythms of time. Perhaps of most use to those who work in deep time is his concept of la longue durée (geographical time) – it is ‘a history in which all change is slow, a history of constant repetition, of ever recurring cycles’. Such a way of looking at things is particularly helpful in the study of the intricately textured Atlantic façade of Europe – a landscape whose communities have forever been dominated by the constant rhythms of the ocean. It was the ocean that, for over 10,000 years, has bound these maritime communities together, encouraging them to turn their backs on the land. It has provided Foreword
    One of the great joys of studying prehistory is that the subject is ever-changing. Every day, whether as the result of carefully directed research excavations or simply as chance finds made during construction work or farming, new evidence is pouring out of the ground. Some of it is spectacular and headline-grabbing but much is unsurprising and, let us be honest, superficially rather dull. Some years ago there was a revealing cartoon that showed an excavation with a pontificating archaeologist and a television team who were packing up in bored disgust. The archaeologist was saying, ‘No, no treasure but a host of fascinating detail about the socio-economic structure of the Iron Age’ – ourselves as others see us! But it is in these details and in the painstaking search for patterns in the data – and then for more data to help consolidate and expand the patterns – that the very basis of archaeological reconstruction lies. Upon these studies prehistory is written.

    Those of us who are ‘dirt-archaeologists’ spend a disproportionate amount of our lives struggling to contain the detail and may perhaps be forgiven for sometimes allowing our vision to be restricted by the edge of the trench or the strict chronological limits of the period we profess to specialize in. There is still, I believe, far too much chronological or regional blinkering in the approach of the discipline. Eighty years ago the great French historian Lucien Febvre, one of the founders of the Annales School of History, wrote in characteristic style, ‘historians be geographers, be jurists too and sociologists and psychologists’. He went on to encourage us to abattre les cloissons (smash down the compartments). As a student, my own rather pathetic response to the clarion call was to smuggle into the pages of the august Proceedings of the Prehistoric Society a description of some Roman potsherds – then an unthinkable intrusion.

    The Annales School, and in particular the writing of its most famous proponent, Ferdinand Braudel, has had a profound effect on the work of archaeologists and prehistorians. Braudel has taught us to think in terms of different rhythms of time. Perhaps of most use to those who work in deep time is his concept of la longue durée (geographical time) – it is ‘a history in which all change is slow, a history of constant repetition, of ever recurring cycles’. Such a way of looking at things is particularly helpful in the study of the intricately textured Atlantic façade of Europe – a landscape whose communities have forever been dominated by the constant rhythms of the ocean. It was the ocean that, for over 10,000 years, has bound these maritime communities together, encouraging them to turn their backs on the land. It has provided a corridor of communications along which commodities, people, ideas and beliefs have flowed with changing intensity over time.

    The physical detritus of these contacts, and their echoes in written anecdotes and song and in the genetic make-up of the population, are the raw materials from which archaeologists, historians, linguists, ethnomusicologists and biomolecular scientists attempt to build models of the past. Each specialist will have a viewpoint – their own cognitive model of the past conditioned by the traditions of their discipline. These undoubtedly have a value but it is only when the compartments separating us have been swept away will new, and perhaps unfamiliar, pictures begin to emerge.

    Bob Quinn, intuitively, has grasped the excitement of it all and has begun to explore many of the more crucial issues. In the story he tells there is much with which we can agree and things that we might feel less happy about – so, in bold reconstructions like this, it will always be. That said, his gentle, provocative style nudges us to confront our prejudices. If, at the end, we go away inspired by the author’s love of his subject, seeing the familiar in different perspective, making new connections and eager to know more, he will more than have achieved his purpose.



    Barry Cunliffe. Professor of European Archaeology, Oxford

    Pont Roux
    Spoiler!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    It's not exactly an endorsement, to be fair.
    While it may not be an endorsement, he has flirted with a lot of these fringe theories in the past, Atlantean, Celtic from the West etc which have no real empirical evidence behind them. He has since hopped on the steppe bandwagon in recent years, however as an academic he should know better than to even as much as entertain the ideas of the likes of marxists like Quinn, who’s theory essentially amounted to “we oirush wuz Moroccan wog kangz” tier larping.

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