Illyrian haplogroup...

[Stefan_Dusan]

For E-V13 to be that wide spread among Albanians and Yugoslavs can't be explained by ancient Greek colonization. It has to have involved land movement of populations.

After Greece, Macedonia becomes the focal point of diversity. From Greece -> Macedonia is no stretch and in this case not spread by sea.

Another oddball is Croatian coast which seems to be a focal point of diversity (old E-V13) but not in high amounts (replaced by other haplogroups) however Croats away from the coast (Bosnia, Slavonia) lose this diversity almost immediately signifying a much more recent expansion of E-V13 there.

So it seems that other than Macedonia and river valleys leading to Poland, E-V13 spread from coastal areas inland. But in the Macedonia case, it points to an origin from Greece.

And has anyone detected a parent marker of E-V13 in the Balkans yet? All the parent markers seem to be in northeast Africa or middle east.

[kuqezi]

After Greece, Macedonia becomes the focal point of diversity. From Greece -> Macedonia is no stretch and in this case not spread by sea.

Another oddball is Croatian coast which seems to be a focal point of diversity (old E-V13) but not in high amounts (replaced by other haplogroups) however Croats away from the coast (Bosnia, Slavonia) lose this diversity almost immediately signifying a much more recent expansion of E-V13 there.

So it seems that other than Macedonia and river valleys leading to Poland, E-V13 spread from coastal areas inland. But in the Macedonia case, it points to an origin from Greece.

And has anyone detected a parent marker of E-V13 in the Balkans yet? All the parent markers seem to be in northeast Africa or middle east.

Don't forget the Dorian invasion of Greece which was from the north and the Peleponese became fully Dorian. And hinterland Illyrians and later Albainans lived separate from coastal colonies and even Shkodra when it was Latin in the middle ages. We were a world apart and isolated to the max, theres no way northern Ghegs are largely paternally derived from ancient Greeks its ridiculous on all levels. These genetic theories are extremely flimsy not to mention being put forth by armchair historians/propagandists like Dienekes.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Don't forget the Dorian invasion of Greece which was from the north and the Peleponese became fully Dorian. And hinterland Illyrians and later Albainans lived separate from coastal colonies and even Shkodra when it was Latin in the middle ages. We were a world apart and isolated to the max, theres no way northern Ghegs are largely paternally derived from ancient Greeks its ridiculous on all levels. These genetic theories are extremely flimsy not to mention being put forth by armchair historians/propagandists like Dienekes.

Not at all, who knows how long you were in the mountains, but I doubt very long. You have to explain to me why Ghegs have 'newer' versions of E-V13 and less diverse than Greeks, if it was Ghegs (Illyrians<->Albanians) who would give it to the Greeks.

Anyways, here is a map of the ethnogensis of the Illyrians, notice from where they come (not from Greece or the south):



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways your arguments for why E-V13 has to be Illyrian (i.e because Albanians in the mountains and Kosovo have it in high concentrations, and believe to be descended from Illyrians) is the same reason some Bosniak and Croats argued I2a2b was Illyrian (i.e because Herzegovina Croats and Bosnians have it in high concentrations and some of them believe to be descended from the Illyrians). But in both cases the diversity for I2a2b and E-V13 is elsewhere and so points to a more recent migration.

[kuqezi]

Not at all, who knows how long you were in the mountains, but I doubt very long. You have to explain to me why Ghegs have 'newer' versions of E-V13 and less diverse than Greeks, if it was Ghegs (Illyrians<->Albanians) who would give it to the Greeks.

Anyways, here is a map of the ethnogensis of the Illyrians, notice from where they come (not from Greece or the south):



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

Your dealing with something extremely hard to bring to light. What we can say though with most certainty is that markers carried by the Gheg Albanian highlanders today are derived from the Illyrians be they what they may. You would need a lot of resources and have to undertake a Coon-like expedition to the mountains to take genetic samples and accompanying each one corresponding clan histories and cross checkings to even begin to produce definitive theories. The Ghegs though are an ideal people for such an undertaking I believe for the same reasons they were for an anthropological field study, their isolation and uniqueness.

Ancient Greek loan words should be a lot more than they are in Albanian. In fact northern Albania would have been an ideal place to preserve Hellenism.

[Kastrioti1443]

There are no proofs that Ev-13 is more diverse in Greece and it is proven that Ev-13 it is found mostly in the areas where Arvanites settled , another big proof of whom the Ev-13 belongs to.

Lol Ev-13 is almost the same in slovenia and poland, and do not forget that the illyrian population once in slovenia was totally displaced or killed during many migrations of kelts, germanics and slavs.

Ev-13 in albanian highlanders is around 42-45% in average, it is ridiculous to say that has any connection with ancient hellenic colonization which was done only in 2 cities anyway.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Your dealing with something extremely hard to bring to light. What we can say though with most certainty is that markers carried by the Gheg Albanian highlanders today are derived from the Illyrians be they what they may. You would need a lot of resources and have to undertake a Coon-like expedition to the mountains to take genetic samples and accompanying each one corresponding clan histories and cross checkings to even begin to produce definitive theories. The Ghegs though are an ideal people for such an undertaking I believe for the same reasons they were for an anthropological field study, their isolation and uniqueness.

Ancient Greek loan words should be a lot more than they are in Albanian. In fact northern Albania would have been an ideal place to preserve Hellenism.

In old times, the Greek tribes met the Illyrian tribes around Montenegro:

The term Illyrioi may originally have designated only a single people who came to be widely known to the Greeks due to proximity.[26] This occurred during the Bronze Age, when Greek tribes were neighboring the southernmost Illyrian tribe of that time in the Zeta plain of Montenegro.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

[Stefan_Dusan]

There are no proofs that Ev-13 is more diverse in Greece

I just showed a study that demonstrated this. Dienekes himself cites study that also demonstrate this.

and it is proven that Ev-13 it is found mostly in the areas where Arvanites settled , another big proof of whom the Ev-13 belongs to.

So if it came from Albania, why is it more diverse in Greece? If Albania is the source, then it has to be the most diverse.

Lol Ev-13 is almost the same in slovenia and poland,

It's almost 2x in Poland.

and do not forget that the illyrian population once in slovenia was totally displaced or killed during many migrations of kelts, germanics and slavs.

But Poland who never had any Illyrians? Why 2x great there over Slovenia who was thoroughly settled and has burial sites?

Ev-13 in albanian highlanders is around 42-45% in average, it is ridiculous to say that has any connection with ancient hellenic colonization which was done only in 2 cities anyway.

Same argument as people use I2a2b, high concentrations. This ignores things like "founder effect" etc

[Black Wolf]

There are no proofs that Ev-13 is more diverse in Greece and it is proven that Ev-13 it is found mostly in the areas where Arvanites settled , another big proof of whom the Ev-13 belongs to.

Lol Ev-13 is almost the same in slovenia and poland, and do not forget that the illyrian population once in slovenia was totally displaced or killed during many migrations of kelts, germanics and slavs.

Ev-13 in albanian highlanders is around 42-45% in average, it is ridiculous to say that has any connection with ancient hellenic colonization which was done only in 2 cities anyway.

Do you know what the approximate J2 percentage among Gheg highlanders is by chance?

[kuqezi]

In old times, the Greek tribes met the Illyrian tribes around Montenegro:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

That is totally false. Illyrians where even south of the Shkumbini river. The Greekness of even the Epirotes is also in question. I don't think you realize how much your stretching here. First of all your would have to refute Coons conclusions about the Ghegs, then the leading linguists to having anything close to something going for your theory. Thats what I hate about all the armchair historians and propagandists like Dienekes they just puts shit out there that flies in the face of real scientific work and it inevitably leaks into debates like here. If he had any balls he'd publish stuff in peer reviewed journals.