Illyrian haplogroup...

[kuqezi]

Albanians not so much, but northern Albanians have it in high numbers. Tosks on other hand seem to be more R1b, J and other stuff.

One other interesting population very high in EV-13 is Greeks from the Peloponnese, almost similar concentration as Kosovo Albanians (and presumably northern Albanians).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html

Check that out, especially the comments. And by Albanians you should know by now I mean northern Albanians as the original ones lol. In the south many others were assimilated.

[Black Wolf]

Most likely a mix of E-V13, J2b, I2a, and R1b mainly. Hard to say for sure though we need ancient DNA for that.

[Stefan_Dusan]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html

Check that out, especially the comments. And by Albanians you should know by now I mean northern Albanians as the original ones lol. In the south many others were assimilated.

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:

I am surprised that a person of your interests has not remarked on the possible role of "Arvanites" in the Greek distribution of V13

This is unlikely to have made an impact, for several reasons:

1) Arvanites settled in very specific Greek locations and quite recently (less than 1000 years for sure), but E-V13 is found all over Greece, in Greek testees from Asia Minor, in Crete, in Cyprus. Indeed, it is one of the most uniformly distributed haplogroups in Greece, which is inconsistent with it being the result of recent admixture.

2) To reach Albania, E-V13 must have passed through Greece. It is less parsimonious to suggest that E-V13 flew over Greece to its north and then back to Greece

3) I already mention in my post the evidence from Calabria where the Albanian minority does not possess it in any great degree, while regular Calabrians (who are significantly of Greek descent, both ancient and medieval) do.

4) Peloponnesians have both more of it and it is more diverse in them than in Albanians

5) Admixture can sometimes lead to increased diversity, but this happens when differentiated undetected subclades of a haplogroup mix. On the other hand, E-V13 has a very clear starlike phylogeny and thus this is not the case. The mix of pre-Arvanite and Arvanite E-V13 would simply not increase STR variance by much.

6) There is good evidence that the Albanians did not inhabit the region they now inhabit originally. Albanian lacks sea-related vocabulary and Greek loan words, which would be strange if they were the next-door neighbors of the Greeks since prehistory.

The E-V13 in Albania is probably the result of absorption of pre-Albanian speakers, particularly Epirotes and the descendants of Greek colonists from the Peloponnese.

I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

[ChocolateFace]

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:



I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

Dienekes is trying to make E-v13 look more Greek since I believe he is Greek.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Dienekes is trying to make E-v13 look more Greek since I believe he is Greek.

He is, but in his argument the center of EV-13 diversity is Greece, as well as the age of EV-13 is a lot older in Greece. All according to his research and model but interesting nonetheless if we try to understand EV-13 role in the Balkan.

[kuqezi]

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:



I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

First you have to keep in mind that Dienekes seems to believe Albanians are from central or southern Serbia which goes against the most conclusions by some of the most astute scholars about Albanians. Also keep in mind that northern Albania though out history has been among the if not the most isolated places in Europe whose inhabitants were just coming out of the Iron Age when Coon studied them. I believe its the unusual isolation of the Albanian (originally best represented by the Ghegs) that accounts for the many anomalies concerning the Albanians and their origins which I also believe would extend to their genetics.

Some of the same factors and population pressures that existed when we expanded into Kosovo were present when we expanded south into Greece. The migrations are well recorded and Greece at that time was in a worse turmoil state than Kosovo was in when we expanded, they were even invited many times by the Byzantines. You should read though Robert Elsie's historical sources that he published which can answer most questions that can possibly pop up during our recorded history.

[Skerdilaid]

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:



I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

His theory is flawed, because he actually doesn't even know where to place Albanians. He seems to think that we neither inhabited Kosova or Albanian itself, but at the same time we have the most Greek imprint. He also argues that Albanian does not have Greek loan words, which he is wrong, we do have quite some Doric Greek words and in Gheg more then Tosk. Also, Albanian does not lack sea fearing words as he seem to think, the most basic words for example are original. Like for example Sea-Deti, Ship-Anije, these are original Albanian words and not borrowed.

But the most important thing that I think is that he is dismissing is, there was never an "Epirotan Greek" and "Macedonian Greek" that have actually migrated towards Albanian highlands, in fact is the opposite.....

[ChocolateFace]

His theory is flawed, because he actually doesn't even know where to place Albanians. He seems to think that we neither inhabited Kosova or Albanian itself, but at the same time we have the most Greek imprint. He also argues that Albanian does not have Greek loan words, which he is wrong, we do have quite some Doric Greek words and in Gegh more then Tosk. Also, Albanian does not lack sea fearing words as he seem to think, the most basic words for example are original. Like for example Sea-Deti, Ship-Anije, these are original Albanian words and not borrowed.

But the most important thing that I think is that he is dismissing is, there was never an "Epirotan Greek" and "Macedonian Greek" that have actually migrated towards Albanian highlands, in fact is the opposite.....

Good points, it's also been said that the highlands have been filled to maximum capacity for a few thousand years. The only major influx into the highlands were from Albanian speaking brethren from Bosnia who haven't been slavicized yet.

[Skerdilaid]

Good points, it's also been said that the highlands have been filled to maximum capacity for a few thousand years. The only influx into the highlands were from Albanian speaking brethren from Bosnia who haven't been slavicized yet.

Agreed, but they were more Northern then what he would like to believe. Also, the Greek colonies played a very small role in Albania proper itself, and even Greek accounts mention Illyrians inhabiting the periphery of the cities. So the only explanation to our genetics is actually the Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians and their likes that inhabited Balkans.

[ChocolateFace]

Agreed, but they were more Northern then what he would like to believe. Also, the Greek colonies played a very small role in Albania proper itself, and even Greek accounts mention Illyrians inhabiting the periphery of the cities. So the only explanation to our genetics is actually the Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians and their likes that inhabited Balkans.

What sucks is that Albanians never wrote much of their own history. Greeks stole a lot from us. For example marathon comes from mere tan(take it all/go the distance). Even many of their tales and stories were taken from us. Modern Greeks can't even understand the language of the ancient Greeks or explanations of the words.