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Emilia Romagna was and is always considered Northern Italy.Originally Posted by Berenice
Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk
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I'm between O and S.
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It's just differences in migration period settling(as well as Celts from pre-Roman Republic), as well as differences in where Romans or other Italians settled. Mediolanum(Milan) used to be the capital of the Roman Empire for a really long time, so more Italians from the central/south would've settled there than Piedmont or Veneto.Why such a small region has such a huge genetic variation? Does it mean it's less stable genetically for the last centuries, right?
In this PCA we can see that some Northern Italians are closer to Tuscans, others to Iberians and others to French.
Q, S, R, M, P (parts of Veneto, Friuli and Trento) would probably be closer to Tyroleans if they were included in the PCA, Austrian Tyroleans are probably the closest living population to what Austrians were before Slavic-admixture.
I have some Austrian Tyrolean kits and they are considerably less eastern-shifted than average Austrians, somewhat intermediary between Veneto and SW Germany.
It's surprising that the only Italian state named after a Germanic people has less Germanic admixture than the others. Even Tuscans have about the same amount of Germanic admixture as Bergamo Italians in models I've tried, they just have more southern/Roman. I would be curious to see results from Pavia.
Also, Slavic admixture in Austria likely came from the same migration period Slavs that settled in East Germany, Bavaria, Slovenia, Bohemia, etc. and not from later Austrian Empire migration, so it was probably a really long time ago when Austrians were like Tyrolians. Tyrolians(even people from Veneto do, Lombards have none) still have around 5% Slavic admixture, but that's nothing compared to Austria's 25-35%.
Why would that be trolling though? It was the only region available from North Italy in academic papers until 2018. Genetic researchers just got unlucky that they happened to pick a spot where the most native North Italians(well, native after Roman Empire, would've been Basque-Iberian like before then), it was reasonable to assume N. Italians(except for Alpine regions and Aosta) would be pretty similar to eachother.
Here's a K15 PCA with South French, seems to be between central French(who cluster around the French average) and Catalonians.
Last edited by XenophobicPrussian; 06-15-2019 at 01:18 PM.
The Guanche skulls as a whole are unlike those of modern European Mediterraneans, and resemble northern European series most closely, especially those in which a brachycephalic element is present, as in Burgundian and Alemanni series.divided them into clearly differentiated types, which include a Mediterranean, a Nordic, a "Guanche," and an Alpine. The "Guanche" accounts for 50 per cent of the whole on the four islands of Teneriffe, Gomera, Gran Canaria, and Hierro; the Nordic for 31 per cent, the Mediterranean for 13 per cent, and the Alpineoldschool anthropology
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Well, Southwestern Germans are considerably less Slavic admixed than Austrians. They are actually quite ''western'' considering their geographical position. Likely they absorbed only small quantities of Slavic blood. Tyroleans descend from Bavarians and it's clear that both have very small Slavic admixture considering where they plot on PCAs.
I have some Austrian Tyroleans, South Tyroleans and Trento Italians ('Italian Tyroleans') kits and they are considerably closer to the French and NW Europeans than to Slavic speaking groups.
I'd like to see results of Ladins from Trentino and Romansch people from Switzerland, since they are probably the closest living populations of pre-Roman and pre-Germanic Alps. Likely they would come as a mix of 'Rhaetian' and 'Celtic'.
Well, things turned out in a way that the Bergamo sample isn't representative for all North Italy as has been spammed here by some people. The region seems to be even more varied than South Italy, with people having very different results even from village to village.Why would that be trolling though? It was the only region available from North Italy in academic papers until 2018. Genetic researchers just got unlucky that they happened to pick a spot where the most native North Italians(well, native after Roman Empire, would've been Basque-Iberian like before then), it was reasonable to assume N. Italians(except for Alpine regions and Aosta) would be pretty similar to eachother.
For anyone who was used with Northern Italians, it was very unlikely that people like Venetians, Friulans and Italian Tyroleans ('Trentino') were more 'southern' than Iberians, that couldn't make sense at all. For example, my grandmother has 100% of her origins in the province of Pordenone and she plots in between S and Q in the PCA. Closer to French and even West Germans than to Iberians. The differences in phenotype are also considerable.
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This means italians are pretty unstable and not represent a single ethnic group, but a lot of diverse european groups under italian flag and italian language.
Opposed to Italy, iberians are extremely homogeneous genetically, but culturally very unstable with a lot of political movements to promote confusion between them and brake the Peninsula.
Last edited by Tenma de Pegasus; 06-15-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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Why such a small region has such a huge genetic variation? Does it mean it's less stable genetically for the last centuries, right?
In this PCA we can see that some Northern Italians are closer to Tuscans, others to Iberians and others to French.
Q, S, R, M, P (parts of Veneto, Friuli and Trento) would probably be closer to Tyroleans if they were included in the PCA, Austrian Tyroleans are probably the closest living population to what Austrians were before Slavic-admixture.
I have some Austrian Tyrolean kits and they are considerably less eastern-shifted than average Austrians, somewhat intermediary between Veneto and SW Germany.
The northward shift of the north Italians is exaggerated in that PCA, because those that go further north belong to French and German linguistic minorities of North Italy, they are not actually ethnic north Italians. Those who did that PCA did a bit of make-up by choosing Valdostans and Cimbrians and passing them off as north Italians.
Bellinzona is Switzerland. Conco and Asiago are Cimbrian. Those from Cuneo Alps belong to the Occitan language minority.
The majority of northern Italians live in the Po Valley and are much closer to the Tuscans than to the French.
Last edited by trebil; 06-15-2019 at 01:51 PM.
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We have academic samples from Rhaeto-Romance speakers from the city of Illegio, Udine. They look like a two-way mixture between Central European Beakers and Neolithic farmers i.e like Old Italic samples, certainly a population relict probably how North Italians looked like before Roman, Germanic and Celtic introgessions.
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Aren't there many Southern Italians in Northern Italy? I've read/heard it multiple times.
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Updated with Aosta and Valtellina:Why such a small region has such a huge genetic variation? Does it mean it's less stable genetically for the last centuries, right?
In this PCA we can see that some Northern Italians are closer to Tuscans, others to Iberians and others to French.
Q, S, R, M, P (parts of Veneto, Friuli and Trento) would probably be closer to Tyroleans if they were included in the PCA, Austrian Tyroleans are probably the closest living population to what Austrians were before Slavic-admixture.
I have some Austrian Tyrolean kits and they are considerably less eastern-shifted than average Austrians, somewhat intermediary between Veneto and SW Germany.
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these PCAs are more accurate imho and were made by a north Italian
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