Should European countries exit NATO?

[The Lawspeaker]

Would this "European-centered" military alliance exclude Russia or...?

It would include Russia. Russia is a European nation and thus it ought to be one of the Allies.

It's indeed time for an... European alliance and for the sake of symbolism: let's sign the treaty for it's establishment in Warsaw, Poland.. and I think that we can safely use the old name...

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by celtabria
Yeah, Yeah, Russia will enslave us all like it did the East, we swap one master for the other.

Britain wouldn't be enslaved. However, the countries in Russia's near periphery could expect to be pushed around without the US presence.

Maybe America could have observer status which would enable it to be a near-equal member, but for symbolic purposes we need you outside of it and for it to have a Europe-only façade, happy now?

I think the problem is that your idea of 'Europe' is merely symbolic, and ignores the realities of policy. Most of Russia isn't in Europe, anyway, and you'd be trading in the world's strongest power for a mediocre power. And as Rachel's proposal alludes to, a US given its walking papers by Europe wouldn't simply remain in stasis. We might end up joining an alliance with someone else, which could easily cause us to side against Europe's interests. Better to have us as a friend obligated to defend you when necessary. Otherwise you might have us as an enemy. From our perspective Europe would also be ingrates, sending us off while welcoming the Russians - the guys who enslaved much of Europe for decades.

[Svipdag]

Well, of course, it's up to them, but I think they should ask themselves what good NATO is doing for them. In the present world situation, does the North Atlantic Treaty have any meaning ?

[Joe McCarthy]

Well, of course, it's up to them, but I think they should ask themselves what good NATO is doing for them. In the present world situation, does the North Atlantic Treaty have any meaning ?

No NATO =

An annoyed US looking for different partners, many of them with conflicting interests with Europe. In other words, the US goes from being obligated to defend Europe to possibly being obligated to attack as would be the case in the Falklands with a South American alliance.

No NATO =

Russia intimidating countries like Estonia.

No NATO =

Third World countries, not Europe, being given America's state-of-the-art military technology. This is assuming we joined another alliance.

No NATO =

A divided West, which would embolden Muslims and China.

No NATO =

The possibility of a rearmed Germany causing instability in Europe.

I could go on, and one might add that NONE of these problems exist currently. One can criticize certain NATO actions, and work to make it better, but wishing to end it, especially by linking it to Britney Spears or how many immigrants Norway took in last year, is lunacy.

[The Lawspeaker]

In case of an European unification there might even be a good name for a federal army.. just to nag JoeMcCarthy and his fellow neocunts a bit: Европейский Рабоче-Крестьянская Красная Армия. (Yevropyeĭskiĭ Rabočě-Krěst'janskaja Krasnaja Armija)

[poiuytrewq0987]

In case of an European unification there might even be a good name for a federal army.. just to nag JoeMcCarthy and his fellow neocunts a bit: Европейский Рабоче-Крестьянская Красная Армия. (Yevropyeĭskiĭ Rabočě-Krěst'janskaja Krasnaja Armija)

I support this motion.

[The Lawspeaker]

I support this motion.

Just taking the piss, mate, just taking the piss.

[YOUTUBE]T3n0vBcW5fc[/YOUTUBE]

[Albion]

Britain wouldn't be enslaved. However, the countries in Russia's near periphery could expect to be pushed around without the US presence.

I thought about this, they already try it, but hopefully France, Britain and Germany could counter it.

I think the problem is that your idea of 'Europe' is merely symbolic, and ignores the realities of policy.

Not really, it's about sustaining Europe for Europeans and not being someone else's spoilt child or victim.

Most of Russia isn't in Europe, anyway,

That's mere geography, for all intents and purposes it is European.

and you'd be trading in the world's strongest power for a mediocre power.

Mediocre yes, but with a large military, many nukes, large reserve and cheap equipment that they can sell to the east. They're good enough.

And as Rachel's proposal alludes to, a US given its walking papers by Europe wouldn't simply remain in stasis. We might end up joining an alliance with someone else, which could easily cause us to side against Europe's interests.

I know, and I doubt America would take it's marching orders very well. Conflicting interests happen though, and South America isn't a threat as much a joke.

Better to have us as a friend obligated to defend you when necessary.

Yeah, I offered you near-equal observer status, you're a friend.

Otherwise you might have us as an enemy.

I guessed that, oh well. Unless there's provocation or if America makes something up then we should get along fine.
America won't be top dog forever, all empires rise and fall and America's peak was reached in the 50s and 60s. America has a large military, but I don't think you could subdue a few hundred million Europeans, there's always some thron in the side who'll fight back.

From our perspective Europe would also be ingrates, sending us off while welcoming the Russians - the guys who enslaved much of Europe for decades.

I don't like Russia that much to be honest with you, I just recognise their necessity and the need to bring them to heel. Not so much welcoming the Russians as roping them into the project.

Well, of course, it's up to them, but I think they should ask themselves what good NATO is doing for them. In the present world situation, does the North Atlantic Treaty have any meaning ?

At the moment it is a tool for influence and power. We invaded Libya for oil and to get Gadafi out of our way so that we could get at said oil whilst also being rid of a dangerous Pan-Arabist (Pan-Arabism is the danger).

An annoyed US looking for different partners, many of them with conflicting interests with Europe. In other words, the US goes from being obligated to defend Europe to possibly being obligated to attack as would be the case in the Falklands with a South American alliance.

Who'd you team up with? Japan, India, Brazil?? You might as well just go it alone.
Or it could stay out of the fighting as most of the European Defence Alliance members would and current NATO members do.
It would be between Britain + anyone who backs us and Argentina and anyone who backs them.
So likely that would be Britain on its tod VS Argentina and Venezuela. Britain would still win with or without aircraft carriers.

No NATO =

Russia intimidating countries like Estonia.

Western Europe would ensure their sovereignty.

Third World countries, not Europe, being given America's state-of-the-art military technology. This is assuming we joined another alliance.

Pfft... and what use is that? No of these countries have the will to even form an alliance.

No NATO =

A divided West, which would embolden Muslims and China.

China wishes for a multipolar world with itself dominating Asia, Muslims can only posse a credible threat if they unite.

No NATO =

The possibility of a rearmed Germany causing instability in Europe.

That would never be allowed by any country, they have Britain, France and Russia to ensure that.

[BeerBaron]

I love the lack of European foresight as many want out of NATO, lets see what that would look like.

No NATO= Europe is little more than a speed bump for China in a decade
No NATO= Well sorry eastern europe back to russia at least as far as being pushed around by russia.

No NATO= Don't even think about europe operating in the pacific anymore, that is home to a very large very pissed off US Naval fleet

No NATO= possible china us alliance, now you're really fucked

No NATO= you quickly exhaust your forces in libya, china takes notice of this and ramps up operations in africa

[The Lawspeaker]

LOL. Scare tactics. It's actually funny how mainly the colonials in this thread are crying it out now "Europe.. don't leave.. don't leave." What is it ? Afraid that we would get politicians that would stick up the two fingers and leave ? Leaving you guys all alone in this bad, bad world ?