Should European countries exit NATO?

[Austin]

This isn't 1935, dude. Germany is more likely to align with Russia, leaving France and Britain looking stupid wondering why they just kicked the US out. The US leaving opens the way for a Russian-German hegemony on the Continent, and we see how that worked out in the past.

Oh no I disagree. Modern Germany is much much closer culturally/civilly/economically to West Europe than it ever will be with Russia save for natural resource/energy deals. Even on economic terms Germany is still much closer to West Europe and the U.S. If Western European and American appetites for German luxury cars dried up modern day Germany would have big troubles.

Germans and their politicians have a very deep mistrust of Russia on a core level as do all West/East European's. It's very obvious, for it literally is the only reason the U.S. is till there. The rest of Europe makes it worth Americas while to stay as a buffer against Russia. If this wasn't so the U.S. would be gone within a few years. Claiming Russia is some great trusted partner of the rest of Europe is more than a little inaccurate though I wish Russia was not such a corrupt place so these fears wouldn't be founded, but I'm afraid they are. Russia is not some tiered democracy, it is the worlds largest institutional mafia state with a nationalistic sycophant at the helm with Soviet delusions. Most Europeans know this.

Business | 26.04.2006

Project Fuels German Fears of Energy Dependency on Russia

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1980615,00.html
Why would a German news site say the word "fears" if they are such great friends with Russia behind closed doors?

You never hear of a German news site saying they have "fears" over an economic reliance on France or America or the UK, yet with Russia there's always this subtle paranoia at any reliance at all.

This is why I think Germany should take it's own destiny in it's hands. It is capable of doing so. It doesn't need the rest of parasitic Europe. It can function on it's own if it will just further develop it's sense of post-war self. One gets the sense Germany is still not where it is going to be mentally for it still bellies up to the whole Israel guilt nonsense and still continues to play soft power broker with it's fake little EU construct.

[Groenewolf]

NATO is necessary in Europe, even with the new geopolitical situation.

The greatest challenge for the USA in the coming decades is more likely to come from China then from Russia. And to deal with China they will have to make deals with Russia. In the same way they have made deals with China to deal with the USSR.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Austin
Oh no I disagree. Modern Germany is much much closer culturally/civilly/economically to West Europe than it ever will be with Russia save for natural resource/energy deals.

That's of course true, but you don't seem to understand the implications of my statement. You're effectively arguing for German hegemony on the Continent, which no one is willingly going to allow, in which case what would be more likely is a German attempt to get itself out of being bottled in by reaching out to Russia. That isn't likely, either, but it's much more likely than what you're suggesting. With the US around though, it's impossible - and that's a good thing.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by celtabria
That's mere geography, for all intents and purposes it is European.

The same could be said for the US. For that matter, some Continentals to this day don't see Britain as European. The only consistency here seems to be to exclude the US.

I know, and I doubt America would take it's marching orders very well. Conflicting interests happen though, and South America isn't a threat as much a joke.

Mexico and Brazil will have large economies in the coming decades. Would you rather us be aligned with them or you?

I guessed that, oh well. Unless there's provocation or if America makes something up then we should get along fine.

It's not likely the US is going to land airborne troops into Nottingham. The point here is that if the US is no longer in close alliance with, say, Britain, it could look for other alliances possibly hostile to Britain. It just isn't a very good idea from your perspective.

Who'd you team up with? Japan, India, Brazil?? You might as well just go it alone.

It's hard to say what we would do. From the perspective of European interests though, it would be neutral for your interests, at best.

Western Europe would ensure their sovereignty.

Why would Estonia take this deal? At present they have Western Europe AND the US safeguarding their sovereignty.

Pfft... and what use is that? No of these countries have the will to even form an alliance.

Maybe, maybe not. At the very least though Europe will no longer be first in line for American arms.

China wishes for a multipolar world with itself dominating Asia

I think that's a mite optimistic.

Muslims can only posse a credible threat if they unite.

They pose a terror threat already. Qadhafi is threatening to launch attacks in NATO countries. If there is no longer an Atlantic Alliance, it should be interesting watching Britain and France try to formulate a credible military response with Germany and Russia, who don't play ball even now.

That would never be allowed by any country, they have Britain, France and Russia to ensure that.

The same could have been said in the 30s. Removing the US from the equation opens doors for all kinds of 'interesting' developments previously impossible.

[Joe McCarthy]

The greatest challenge for the USA in the coming decades is more likely to come from China then from Russia. And to deal with China they will have to make deals with Russia. In the same way they have made deals with China to deal with the USSR.

In which case the US would be selling Estonia out to Russia. How does that make Russia look good though?

[Rachel]

Well heres a laugh for all of you we could scrap NATO and determine alliances by First, Second and Third World catergories (very outdated.. but who cares)

[Comte Arnau]

Well, as a European I'd also frankly prefer a stronger European Army, if needed.

What would these European Alliance do in case of trouble inside the countries or between countries? Like, how would it react to an independence war in the Balkans (again),in Spain (separate Catalonia),

Catalonia's pursuit of state sovereignty is peaceful, man. Do not compare.

[Joe McCarthy]

Well heres a laugh for all of you we could scrap NATO and determine alliances by First, Second and Third World catergories (very outdated.. but who cares)

We certainly shouldn't welcome closer collaboration between the US and Latin America, and any European move to push us out would tend to move us in that direction.

Ending the Atlantic Alliance, when considered in its full implications and possibilities, is nothing less than racial and civilizational treason.

[Groenewolf]

In which case the US would be selling Estonia out to Russia.

Which makes it more important why Europe should take more care of their own defense instead of staying depended on America whose geopolitical interests may move away from Europe (-Russia) in the long run.

[Joe McCarthy]

Which makes it more important why Europe should take more care of their own defense instead of staying depended on America whose geopolitical interests may move away from Europe (-Russia) in the long run.

Europe can increase its defense expenditures without pulling out of NATO. We're dealing with a hypothetical situation with Estonia - but if the US leaves they'll have less protection than they do now for sure.