Is R1a underestimated in Romania ?

[Artek]

He is CTS3402, not really typical for Germany and most common Z280 in Romania, just saying...
By the way, Transylvanian Saxons originate from southwest Germany which is very poor in R1a of any type.

Initial wave of Transylvanian Saxons originates from the area of Luxembourg and Moselle so any expected main R1a type was probably L664 and Z93, maybe also few cases of Z280 but rather very rare xCTS3402xCTS1211 Western Euro cases.

So I am aware of that but the next waves came from anywhere like Bavaria and Thuringia where CTS3402 is present without any bigger sampling.

We can't then really disprove (or prove) that his CTS3402 was from the Germany or not. If he was let's say I1 or R1b-P312, then it could have also been local as well. We just speak of a likelihood.

The best thing would be to get some decent high-resolution matching suggesting one option or another.

[Norb]

Initial wave of Transylvanian Saxons originates from the area of Luxembourg and Moselle so any expected main R1a type was probably L664 and Z93, maybe also few cases of Z280 but rather very rare xCTS3402xCTS1211 Western Euro cases.

So I am aware of that but the next waves came from anywhere like Bavaria and Thuringia where CTS3402 is present without any bigger sampling.

We can't then really disprove (or prove) that his CTS3402 was from the Germany or not. If he was let's say I1 or R1b-P312, then it could have also been local as well. We just speak of a likelihood.

The best thing would be to get some decent high-resolution matching suggesting one option or another.

Where is it from in your personal view?

[Artek]

Where is it from in your personal view?

If he descends from the settlers in direct paternal line then probably southeastern parts of Germany like Upper Palatinate, Upper Franconia, Upper or Lower Bavaria, Thuringia.

If not, then it is a local line.

I won't make any decisive bets on that, though when basing on numbers local origins may be slightly more likely. I don't know, however, whether Saxons ever included locals in their ranks or not.

[Jana]

...

What do you know about R1a CTS8816 ? I would be grateful if you have any info.

[Artek]

What do you know about R1a CTS8816 ? I would be grateful if you have any info.

CTS8816 itself probably originated around 2200 b.c., most likely taking part in the eastern trzciniec part of Trzciniec cultural horizon.

It is the main CTS3402 type found in Slavic people (or their descendants) and is divided into three main types: Y2902 (to which I belong), L1280 and S18681.

There are also very rare CTS8816 types that don't belong to these 3 types. One proven case was found in Switzerland and another one in the Sicily.


Y2902 has more southerly distribution and is numerically superior, mainly because eastern subclades of Y2902 (Y2910 and downstream) made their way in the Ukraine and Russia. Distribution of western subclades like Y3226 is centered around Slovakia and southern parts of modern Poland (both Lesser Poland and Silesia) but it is to a lesser degree found even deep in the Balkans (recently an Albanian). In what is now Germany, it is mostly Southern and southern-central parts. Other Y2902 subclades are crazily spread throughout Europe and found even in England, Sardinia and Turkey and Denmark.

L1280 is less numerous, less southern (though there are pockets in Serbia and other Balkan countries). In Poland L1280 is stronger in Masovia and Cuyavia regions. Seems to be more frequently found in Eastern Prussia and Pomerania than Y2902 but much less pronounced in Silesia and Lesser Poland.

S18681 is most likely the smallest, with the distribution centered in the Eastern Germany and Poland although there are exceptions from other countries (Ukraine, Denmark, British Isles). In Poland stronger in central-northern parts (Pomerania, Cuyavia, northern Greater Poland). A current king of the Netherlands belongs to this line.

[Jana]

CTS8816 itself probably originated around 2200 b.c., most likely taking part in the eastern trzciniec part of Trzciniec cultural horizon.

It is the main CTS3402 type found in Slavic people (or their descendants) and is divided into three main types: Y2902 (to which I belong), L1280 and S18681.

There are also very rare CTS8816 types that don't belong to these 3 types. One proven case was found in Switzerland and another one in the Sicily.


Y2902 has more southerly distribution and is numerically superior, mainly because eastern subclades of Y2902 (Y2910 and downstream) made their way in the Ukraine and Russia. Distribution of western subclades like Y3226 is centered around Slovakia and southern parts of modern Poland (both Lesser Poland and Silesia) but it is to a lesser degree found even deep in the Balkans (recently an Albanian). In what is now Germany, it is mostly Southern and southern-central parts. Other Y2902 subclades are crazily spread throughout Europe and found even in England, Sardinia and Turkey and Denmark.

L1280 is less numerous, less southern (though there are pockets in Serbia and other Balkan countries). In Poland L1280 is stronger in Masovia and Cuyavia regions. Seems to be more frequently found in Eastern Prussia and Pomerania than Y2902 but much less pronounced in Silesia and Lesser Poland.

S18681 is most likely the smallest, with the distribution centered in the Eastern Germany and Poland although there are exceptions from other countries (Ukraine, Denmark, British Isles). In Poland stronger in central-northern parts (Pomerania, Cuyavia, northern Greater Poland). A current king of the Netherlands belongs to this line.

Thank you!

[Dick]

Initial wave of Transylvanian Saxons originates from the area of Luxembourg and Moselle so any expected main R1a type was probably L664 and Z93, maybe also few cases of Z280 but rather very rare xCTS3402xCTS1211 Western Euro cases.

So I am aware of that but the next waves came from anywhere like Bavaria and Thuringia where CTS3402 is present without any bigger sampling.

We can't then really disprove (or prove) that his CTS3402 was from the Germany or not. If he was let's say I1 or R1b-P312, then it could have also been local as well. We just speak of a likelihood.

The best thing would be to get some decent high-resolution matching suggesting one option or another.

Transylvania Saxons are overwhelmingly R1b(most like U106) according to a study from 2004.

the following haplogroups were predicted in the 59 males:

5 E1b1b
1 G1
2 G2a
2 H
4 I1
3 I2a(xI2a2)
1 I2a2
1 I2b1
1 J2b
1 N
2 R1a
22 R1b

Ligia Barbarii et al.

ABSTRACT: A study on Y-STR haplotypes in the Saxon population from Transylvania
(Siebenbürger Sachsen): is there an evidence for a German origin? Y chromosome markers are increasingly used to investigate human population histories, being considered to be sensitive systems for detecting the population movements. In this study we present Y-STR data for a male population of Transylvanian Saxons in
comparison with Y-haplotypes from Romanians and other European populations. The Transylvanian Saxons, called like that since medieval times, are representing a western population with unknown origin, settled in the Arch of Romanian Carpathian Mountains in the earliest of the 12th century. Historical and dialectal studies strongly suggest that they do not originate from Saxony, but more probably from the Mosel riversides (Rhine affluent) and also from the Eifel Mountains Valley (present territory of Luxembourg). Living protected by fortified cities in compact communities, they still represent a quite distinct population in Transylvania. For this study, 59 male samples were collected from the Siebenburgen area, subjects being selected by their Saxon surnames and paternal grandfather birthplace. A set of nine STR polymorphic systems mapping on the male-specific region of the human Y chromosome (DYS19, DYS385, DYS389 I/II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393) were typed by means of
one or two two multiplex PCR reactions and capillary electrophoresis. The typing results reflect high Saxon population haplotype diversity. Furthermore, we present data on the haplotype sharing of the Saxon population with other European populations, especially with Germans as well as with the Romanians and the Transylvanian Szekely.

[MagnusDark]

CTS8816 itself probably originated around 2200 b.c., most likely taking part in the eastern trzciniec part of Trzciniec cultural horizon.

It is the main CTS3402 type found in Slavic people (or their descendants) and is divided into three main types: Y2902 (to which I belong), L1280 and S18681.

There are also very rare CTS8816 types that don't belong to these 3 types. One proven case was found in Switzerland and another one in the Sicily.


Y2902 has more southerly distribution and is numerically superior, mainly because eastern subclades of Y2902 (Y2910 and downstream) made their way in the Ukraine and Russia. Distribution of western subclades like Y3226 is centered around Slovakia and southern parts of modern Poland (both Lesser Poland and Silesia) but it is to a lesser degree found even deep in the Balkans (recently an Albanian). In what is now Germany, it is mostly Southern and southern-central parts. Other Y2902 subclades are crazily spread throughout Europe and found even in England, Sardinia and Turkey and Denmark.

L1280 is less numerous, less southern (though there are pockets in Serbia and other Balkan countries). In Poland L1280 is stronger in Masovia and Cuyavia regions. Seems to be more frequently found in Eastern Prussia and Pomerania than Y2902 but much less pronounced in Silesia and Lesser Poland.

S18681 is most likely the smallest, with the distribution centered in the Eastern Germany and Poland although there are exceptions from other countries (Ukraine, Denmark, British Isles). In Poland stronger in central-northern parts (Pomerania, Cuyavia, northern Greater Poland). A current king of the Netherlands belongs to this line.

What is your knowledge base/position on M458 and clades(more specifically L1029)?. Always looking to learn more on these clades. I happen to belong to an Albanian founder effect splitting L1029 that seems localized to Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia. Our TMRCA with each other is about 1100-1200 years. There are currently 6 Albanians by surname in this cluster and an additional 12 through various studies(a few tosks among them). Most have origin around north-east Albania/west Macedonia.

[Dick]

What is your knowledge base/position on M458 and clades(more specifically L1029)?. Always looking to learn more on these clades. I happen to belong to an Albanian founder effect splitting L1029 that seems localized to Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia. Our TMRCA with each other is about 1100-1200 years. There are currently 6 Albanians by surname in this cluster and an additional 12 through various studies(a few tosks among them). Most have origin around north-east Albania/west Macedonia.

So all 18 of you that were tested descend from the same male?

[MagnusDark]

So all 18 of you that were tested descend from the same male?

So far yes. Founder lived between 800-900AD. 6 of the families are in our project with the rest being sourced from various studies. mostly Ghegs, but some Tosk as well. It is funny cause I was joking about the clan my family has had blood feuds with in our area, and that it would be funny if they were same haplo and cluster. Turns out they were lol. It seems this cluster is mostly concentrated in Eastern Albania/Western Macedonia. Most of them seem localized around Diber/Debar on both sides of the border. Theres alot of L1029 Albanian families on 23andme we match with, but most of them have been unresponsive about testing BigY or even just Y37 to validate it.

There were a couple of Croats and 3 Bulgarians from a study who matched 1 of the STRs typical of the cluster. However, they tested no more than 12-16 or so STRs so the values for the other STRs are unknown. At least matching one suggests they may be part of a pre-cluster split. Interestingly though, they are all from areas Albanian migrants went to. Like Razgrad(where Arbanas is located) and Zadar in Croatia.

There was another Bulgarian from Burgas, but per his STRs it was either R1a or R1b, so he wasn't stable enough.