Kuçi Dhe Vasojeçi

[Dick]

Interesting, whatabout the other clans? Bratonozici? Piperi possibly or the like?

Piperi have mixed origins like Morlak said. Here's the timeline when the mixing occurred and why;

In 1658, the seven tribes of Kuči, Vasojevići, Bratonožići, Piperi, Klimenti, Hoti and Gruda allied themselves with the Republic of Venice, establishing the so-called "Seven-fold banner" or "alaj-barjak", against the Ottomans

[Dick]

Bratonožići belong to Q2 haplogroup

Also L1b-M317, No idea how and why.

[Jackson78]

Also L1b-M317, No idea how and why.

Wrong, L1b-M317 has presence only in Zagarač tribe and in E. Herzegovina.

Bratonožići belong to Q2 haplogroup and i think they have no relations to Albanians, as for Piperi some of them have I2 and R1a wich are typical Serbian but they also have R-Y33200 which is present in Albanians.

Actually almost whole Piperi tribe belongs to R-Y33200.

[Skerdilaid]

There is not doubt anymore that Kuqi, Piperi and Bjelopavlici were Albanian. Vasojevici isn’t that clear yet, but they most likely were as well considering they are PH1246>BY14151 and also based on their traditions of common origin with Hoti, Krasniqi etc.

Except some fractions of Kuqi they are gone for good. Funny they are the most nationalists Serbs among the Montenegrins.

[MagnusDark]

Vasojevići dont have Albanian origin as far as i am aware. As for Kuči they seem to have Albanian origin on one part but most of them are today patriotic Serbs/Montenegrins.

My in-laws are Kuci. They have openly mentioned their Albanian origin and neither of the ones I am acquainted view Serbs positively. They do call themselves Montenegrin though.

[Vukodav]

Slobodan Milosevic and Mortimer are from Vasojevići clan. Even though they're E-v13 their specific subclade is not related to any Albanian clans afaik. Vukodav would more know about that.

Yeah, from what I know the people who belong to that subclade (except Vasojevići)are one Serbian brotherhood that has ancestry from Montenegro, bunch of Herzegovian Serbs, Croats, Slovenians some NorthWestern Europeans and Greeks. No Albanians so far, but I am sure some sample will eventually come out, due to the migrations and such. But all in all the subclade is separated 4000 years ago from other Balkan e-v13. I think its too early to claim anything else besides that tbh. My personal theory is that its carriers were part of northern Illyrian tribes that got Slavicised early on.
Now, when it comes to other mentioned clans, Kuči are definitely of mixed origin, older population being R1a carriers adopted by ev13 Mrnjavčevići and Drekalovići.
Bjelopavlići have historically confirmed Albanian ancestor that served Nemanjići from what I know, they were a warrior band that served as some sort of militia to Crnojevići or Balšići (I forgot). Piperi have Slavic I2 haplogroup for the most part. But they are mixed clan, unlike Vasojevići, Drobnjaci, Kuči etc who have one common ancestor, so its hard to tell. I consider all of them to be Slavic Serbs/Montenegrins, because that is their main identity. Even the ones with that Albanian ancestor. We are talking about haplogroups btw, they have no ethnic identity, everything is possible

[Vukodav]

My in-laws are Kuci. They have openly mentioned their Albanian origin and neither of the ones I am acquainted view Serbs positively. They do call themselves Montenegrin though.

Kuči still have Albanian and Slavic muslim minority. The slavic muslims will obviously have negative feelings towards Serbs. But Kuči are one of the most nationalistic Serbs in Montenegro for sure

[Skerdilaid]

Piperi are actually predominantly R1b-BY611>Z2705 and related to me actually lol. Some small fractions there belong to different lines, of course - like Mugoša for example who are with origin from Kastrat (they have tested as V13-L241>PH2180) etc

[Dukagjini]

Piperi are actually predominantly R1b-BY611>Z2705 and related to me actually lol. Some small fractions there belong to different lines, of course - like Mugoša for example who are with origin from Kastrat (they have tested as V13-L241>PH2180) etc

Skerdi what do you think of these statements from an article,

1.5.1. Lake Scutari (Southern and Eastern Montenegro, Northwestern Albania, etc.) Of all of the areas of Slavic-Albanian language contact, the area around Lake Scutari (Sr Skadarsko jezero, Alb Liqeni i Shkodrës) and in the mountain villages in eastern Montenegro has seen the greatest amount of reciprocal bilingualism. Part of this may be due to the area’s peripheral location to many of the political states that had influence in the western Balkans. More likely, however, is the relatively equal social standing between Albanian and Montenegrin tribes from their origins in the 14th and 15th centuries at least until the reorganization of society under Communism (von Šufflay 1925/2004: 75–78; Omari 1989: 45). This was promoted by the common cultural values held by highland Montenegrins and Albanians (Çabej 1975, cited in Omari 1989: 45), especially regarding traditions of marriage and descent. Both the Albanians and the Montenegrins considered marriage within the male bloodline to be unacceptable. In order to work around this limitation, brides were often sought from other communities, and some Montenegrin and Albanian tribes had traditions of seeking wives from one another’s communities (Durham 1928: 15; Curtis 2007: 19). One obvious result of these arrangements was an effective bilingualism and intimate cultural contact between Albanians and Montenegrins in this area. Some lexical items (addressed in the next chapter) attest to both the practice of exogamous marriage and the shared cultural values found among the Albanian and Montenegrin tribes in the area. Second, in the time of close cultural contact, it is known that certain clans (e.g. Piperi and Kuči) have switched from having a mixed composition of Albanian and Slavic speakers to being only Slavic (Omari 1989: 45; von Šufflay 1924). In addition, several tribes that are now monolingual Albanian or Slavic maintain identical stories of ethnogenesis (Omari 1989: 45; Barjaktarević 1962). According to Stanišić, the influence of contact with Albanian can be seen throughout Old Montenegro, and in practically every Montenegrin tribe (1995: 24). Two fairly recent cases of population shifts have occurred in Montenegro where many linguistic convergences between Slavic and Albanian are also found. First is the Mrković (also Mrkojević) community in the highlands above Bar/Tivar. Although it is certain that some of the Mrkovići were historically Albanian (and some continue to identify themselves as such), scholars disagree whether linguistic and other cultural similarities to Slavic dialects in Kosovo and Macedonia are the result of Albanian speakers shifting to Slavic or simply from their location historically. Most scholars believe that they lived in northern Albania and thus, geographically, connected Slavic dialects in Montenegro, southern Serbia (including Kosovo) and northern Macedonia (Stanišić 1995: 17).

[Vukodav]

Piperi are actually predominantly R1b-BY611>Z2705 and related to me actually lol. Some small fractions there belong to different lines, of course - like Mugoša for example who are with origin from Kastrat (they have tested as V13-L241>PH2180) etc

Piperi as a clan have two or three ancestral "bases". The old one is basically made of Slavic carriers I2 and R1a. The largest Piperi brotherhood Lutovci are I2. The ones that belong to R1b are called Lužani, after the old Vlach/Latin clan that got slavicised. I think that ev13 carriers among Piperi are called Crnci, and that they alse stteem from Lužani. I don't count other multiple brotherhoods that have different ancestry and were adopted gradually by Piperi