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Thread: Comacchiese dialect of Emilian. What does it sound like to you?

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    Default Comacchiese dialect of Emilian. What does it sound like to you?

    From wiki,

    The dialect of Comacchio is a dialect of the Emilian-Romagnol language spoken in Comacchio and connected to the dialects of some neighbouring municipalities of the Province of Ferrara.

    Because of the phonetic characteristics and the isolated geographical position of Comacchio, the Comacchiese is an independent dialect from the Ferrara area, and therefore forms a subgroup right inside the Emilian. Biondelli considered it a Ferrarese dialect, albeit with a certain independence.

    The Comacchiese is spoken only in the town of Comacchio (Cmac'). In its fractions Porto Garibaldi (Magnavache) and San Giuseppe (Funtèane), there is instead a Ferrarese dialect hybridized with Comacchiese. To the west, in the municipality of Lagosanto (Lag) there is a dialect with peculiar characteristics and in part common to Comacchiese, while in the north in the municipality of Codigoro (Codgòr) and in the Massa Fiscaglia district of the municipality of Fiscaglia , there is a dialect of Ferrarese with characteristics typical of the area and common to both Lagosanto, Mesola and Goro. Portomaggiore and Ostellato are located within the area of ​​the Middle Ferrara and therefore have dialectological characteristics common to the Copparo and Ferrara citizens. Comacchiese influences do not exceed the northern boundary of the municipality, as the dialect of Goro is Venetian with some Ferrarese traits; to the south, in parallel, the dialects of Longastrino, Anita, Sant'Alberto and Porto Corsini are fully Romagnol. To the east the municipality of Comacchio is bathed by the Adriatic Sea, a very important contact with Venice.

    In common with Bologna and Romagna, and unlike the Ferrara area, the vowel system of Comacchiese distinguishes the vowel quantity and is strongly differentiated according to the type of syllable (closed or open).

    VOWELS

    1. The / a / atones tend to be centralized in [ə], and at the end of word the phenomenon is so strong that local writers tend to graphically represent the sound with the letter e: amighe [əˈmiːgə] "friend".

    2. As in Bolognese the diphthongs [ai - au] are present: taile, mais, dutaur, fiaur [tailə - maiz - duˈtaur - fjaur] "canvas, month, doctor, flower".

    3. As in all the dialects of Emilia-Romagna the syncope of atonic vowels is very common.

    4. In final position, short / i - u / diphthongs in [əi - øu]: dëi, tëi, löu, piöu [dəi - təi - løu - pjøu] "day, you, he, more".

    5. Unlike Ferrarese (who maintains the a) and Bolognese (who changes it to [ɛː]), the Latin A syllable result in an open syllable is a diphthong, as in Romagnol, although much more open than Ravennate: sèale, usdèal, lèane [sæɛlə - usdæɛl - læɛnə] "room, hospital, wool".

    6. Unlike all the neighbouring dialects, the accented sound [ə] is present: dët, avrël [dət - əˈvrəl] "said, April".

    CONSONANTS

    1. As in Ferrarese, the distinction of consonant quantity is missing.

    2. Probably due to Venetian influence, there is no deaf and resonant z, present in the neighbouring areas: piase, sità, mèars, viaş, şnéar [pjaːsə - siˈta - mæɛrs - vjaːz - zneər] "square, city, March, journey, January".

    3. Some metathesis are present: èrbal, spcadaur [ɛrbəl - spkəˈdaur] "tree, fisherman".

    4. The / l / is similar to the standard Italian and does not have the strong veil component typical of the Ferrara area.

    5. the sibilants / s - z / are similar to the standard Italian ones, while in the surrounding dialects they have an apico-alveolar pronunciation.

    MORPHOLOGY

    In Comacchiese, in common with the dialects of central-eastern Emilia and central-southern Veneto, the masculine plural is characterized by metaphony. Some of the many vocalic changes are:

    1. [aːl → iːə]: bâl / bîe, fradâl / fradîe "beautiful / beautiful (plural), brother / brothers"

    2. [oə → uːə]: fióal / fiûa, póac / pûac "son / sons, little / few"

    3. [ai → iː]: cmaciaiş / cmacîş, maiş / miş "comacchiese / comacchiesi, month / months"

    4. [au → uː]: fiaur / fiûr, dutaur / dutûr "flower / flowers, doctor / doctors"

    5. [ɔ → o]: bòn / bón "good / good (plural)"

    6. The definite articles are el, le, i [[l - lə - i - il]. The feminine plural has the ending -i: il gati, il pìeguri [il gaːti - il piəguri] "the cats, the sheep".


    Today, as already mentioned, linguists consider it a dialectal group of Emilian, and should not be assimilated to the Ferrarese or Bolognese dialects (as opposed to the dialect of nearby Argenta, for example).


    The lexicon of the Comacchio dialect is rich in Venetianisms and its own terms, especially due to the historical isolation of the area. The lexicon of fishing in the valleys is incomparably varied; some of the innumerable terms: vugate (small net to sort the fish), paradâl (pointed stick to push the boats into the muddy bottoms), giambàn (tip of the paradâl), grisòle (cane lattice to trap fish and eels), fuşnèn (poacher), steşunàs (bad weather that make fishing difficult), guasaròl (fishing technique in which the fisherman is immersed in water), baurghe (large basket to collect eels), bufùn (fish dead of cold), dgòl (trap that conveys fish into a bag).


    Parable of the Prodigal Son in Comacchiese:

    Un om aveva du fiù. 'D questi, el più picul diss a sue päder: "Papà, dem le mie purzion che 'm toca!" e 'l päder fé le division tra lur dle sue robe. Passaa puech giorn, el più pznin miss assiem quel ch'l'aveva e 'l partì per un paes luntan, dove 'l dissipè 'l sue in donn. E quand el n'avè più nient e vins une grande carestie, cminsipiè a fàregh sentir la miserie. Alora l'andè e 'l s' miss äl servizzi d'un 'd chel paes, che 'l mandè int una sue campagne a där da magnär ai porch. E menter l'era là, l'avrie pur vluu magnär 'd chil scors ch'magnäva i porch; ma än jere ensun gh'in dässen. 'Gnuu in lù, el diss: "Quant servitur e jera in cà 'd mie päder ch'aveven del pan in abundanza, e mì e son chì che muer 'd fam! E 'm muvrò, anderò de mie päder e 'gh dirò: Papà, e i ho pcaa contre 'l siel e contre 'd vù; E 'n son degn d'esser ciamaa voster fiol; fèm com un di voster servitur". Pue 'l s'tols sù e 'l vins de sue päder. Quand l'era ancor luntan, el päder el vist e, moss de cumpassion, el gh'cors incontre e 'l gh' saltè al col e l'el basè. El fiol egh diss: "Papà, e i ho pcaa contre 'l siel e contre 'd vù; e 'n merit più d'esser ciamaa voster fiol". Alor el päder diss ai sò servitur: "Subit purtèj el sue abit e vstìl; metìgh el sue anel in dide, e il sue scarpe in pie. Pue condusì un videl grass, mazzàl, magnämel e stèn alegher; perchè 'stel mie fiol l'era mort e l'è rsuscitaa; el aveva pers, e l'ho truvä". E i cminzè a far feste. Ere mò int el camp el fiol più grand, e menter el gniva a cà e 'l s'evzinava, el sentì a sunär e a balär. E 'l ciamè un di servitur e 'l gh' dmandè cosa l'era. E 'stu rispos "Sue fradel", ch'l'era vgnuu, e che sue päder aveva mazzaa un videl grass, perchè 'l aveva avuu salv. 'Sta cosa el fè muntär in colera, e 'n vleva più endär in cà; ma sue päder, essend vegnuu fuere, l'el preghè. E 'l fiol e 'gh rispos: "Ech, dop tant an ch'e 'v e ch'e 'n v'ho mai disubdii 'n quel ch'm'avì cmandaa, e 'n m'avì mai daa un cavret per stär in alegrie coi mie amigh". Ma subit che 'stel voster fiol, ch'ha consumaa quel che ghe avì daa cun dil donn, l'è 'gnuu, avì mazzaa un grass videl". Ma el päder e 'gh diss: "Fiol, tì ti è semper cun mì, e quel ch'ho l'è tue. Ma bsugnava fär feste e stär alegher, che 'stel tue fradel l'era mort e l'è rsuscitaa; l'era pers e l'avenn truvaa.

    A novel of Boccaccio in Comacchiese:

    Donche e digh che int i temp del prim re 'd Sipri, dop le cunquiste dle Tere Sänte fate de Gutifré 'd Buglion, ä suzzess che une gentil done 'd Guescogne l'endé in pelegrinagg äl Sepoulcher e che, turnand indrie, erivaa ch'le fu in Sipri, le fu ultregiaa vilenement de di omin scelerät; mutiv per cui eile, doulendes senze endsune cunsulezion, le pensé d'endär ä ricorer del re; ma ägh fu dit de quelcun ch'l'erev pers le fedighe, perchéi el re l'iere d'une vite ecsì fiache e 'csì bone de puech che non soul e 'n vedicäve, metend sote prusess igli ufeis fat äi äter, ma änzi el supurtäve con une viltà vituperevole chigli infinit ingiuri 'ch gh'iere fat ä lù. Tänt che quelunque ch'l'ess une quälche räbie 'd denter, el le sfugäve fegandegh ä lù une quälche ingiurie o un quälch scoren. Le done, sentend 'ste cosse, dspraa d'en pseres vendicär, per ever pur un quälch sfogh dle sue pession, le stebilì 'd vrer punzer la viltà 'd stel re. E, pienzend, l'endé devänti al re, e le 'gh diss: "Sgnor mie, mi e 'n vien ä le sue presenze perchéi ä m'espete vendete per l'ingiurie ch'm'è staa fate; ma per sfogh ed quele e 't pregh t'm'insign com tì 't sofer queli ch'e sent ch'i 't fa ä tì perchéi, imperand de tì, mì e puesse supurtär pezientement le mie; le quäl, el sa Idiu se, quänd el psess fär, e le dunerev vluntiere ä tì, del mument che tì t'il sa supurtär ecsì ben". El re, che fin ä chel punt l'iere staa lent e pigher, quäsi che 'l s'edsiäss elore, cuminziand de l'ingiurie fate ä 'ste done, che lù el vendiché fourtement, el dventé persecutour rigourosissim d'ugnun che de chel gioren el coumetess quälche cosse contr'ä l'ounour dle sò couroune.


    Comacchiese (poetry):




    Songs in Comacchiese:

    TAN VID CUCALEI (some parts are in Italian),



    MAGNABAC (some parts are in Italian),



    #CULAVERT (some parts are in Italian),



    SOL DAL BAC,



    Location of Comacchio:



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    Islero Duffmannn's Avatar
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    When I used to live in Bologna I never met anybody from there that could speak the local emiliano-romagnolo dialect.

    It seems that in big parts of Italy the dialects are barely spoken nowadays, except the northernmost regions (Friuli, Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Aosta) and the southernmost ones (Sicilia, Calabria, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata) and even in these regions the young people speaks mostly italian-toscano.

    When I was in Sassari, Sardiny, on the streets, almost everything I heard when listening to the local people was italian-toscano, I only watched a group of adult-young people speaking in sardo.

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    Parcere subiectis, debellare superbos. gıulıoımpa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffmannn View Post
    When I used to live in Bologna I never met anybody from there that could speak the local emiliano-romagnolo dialect.

    It seems that in big parts of Italy the dialects are barely spoken nowadays, except the northernmost regions (Friuli, Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Aosta) and the southernmost ones (Sicilia, Calabria, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata) and even in these regions the young people speaks mostly italian-toscano.

    When I was in Sassari, Sardiny, on the streets, almost everything I heard when listening to the local people was italian-toscano, I only watched a group of adult-young people speaking in sardo.
    people either stop speaking local dialect or alternatively speak a more " italianized version of it", the second case being more common.

    even dialects from the parts of the country most used to the use of dialect are nowadays becoming less and less divergent (even though in my opinion the north is a touch better in preserving dialects when instead in the continental south they are more and more converging together in a generic "southern italian dialect" and a similar thing is happening for the various sicilian dialects , whcih used to be very different among themselves converging into one big generic sicilian.) . it's a slow morphing process. if one were to speak for example, sicilian or Emilian with the historical grammar rules and true sounds it used to historically have, they are truly different langauges from standard italian and incomprehensible to outsiders.



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    Islero Duffmannn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gıulıoımpa View Post
    people either stop speaking local dialect or alternatively speak a more " italianized version of it", the second case being more common.

    even dialects from the parts of the country most used to the use of dialect are nowadays becoming less and less divergent (even though in my opinion the north is a touch better in preserving dialects when instead in the continental south they are more and more converging together in a generic "southern italian dialect" and a similar thing is happening for the various sicilian dialects , whcih used to be very different among themselves converging into one big generic sicilian.) . it's a slow morphing process. if one were to speak for example, sicilian or Emilian with the historical grammar rules and true sounds it used to historically have, they are truly different langauges from standard italian and incomprehensible to outsiders.
    That process is understandable and logical.

    In Spain the catalan was homogenisied in the XIX by Pompeu Fabra by linguistical-artificial ways (in fact before catalan was called lemosín and was consideared a branch of occitan lenguage, which is logical). Nowadays the catalan is an unified lenguage in Spain, while in France the occitan is a continuous of dialects that from one point to the other (Provenza to Burdeos) are yet different lenguages.

    A stronger difference was the one between the distinct dialects of the basque lenguage, that were completely unintelegible. For example it was very known that peoples from Ondarroa and Lekeitio, two villages in the basque coast distant themselves only 10 kilometers, couldn´t communicate themselves (and had to do it in castillian). So in the 60´s they invented the euskera batua, that is literally a new lenguage (like modern hebrew) that it´s taught in basque schools. Children speaks it... but they can not speak in basque with their parents or grandparents that speak the traditional basque dialects.

    Also has happened the opposite, the portuguese was more similar to the castillian in the XVI century than nowadays; it was artificially differenciated from the castillian since the definitive independance of Portugal for political reasons.

    But that was not my point (the standarization of dialects) but its tendency to dissapearance, and I was focusing mainly on the case of Emilia-Romagna (as the topic talks about it). I have met just one emiliano-romagnolo ragazzo that writes some posts (facebook, whatsapps...) and speaks some words or expressions regularly on dialect. The 99% rest of young people doesn´t use it, not even for popular or traditional expressions (that´s my impression)

    Also was a little shocking for me that in an island as Sardiny most people I met, even the "old" (50-60 years) communicate themselves exclusivily on italian-toscano.

    And italian until the 50´s (or even later) was not widely used in most parts of Italy.

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    Senior Member savvas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffmannn View Post
    When I used to live in Bologna I never met anybody from there that could speak the local emiliano-romagnolo dialect.

    It seems that in big parts of Italy the dialects are barely spoken nowadays, except the northernmost regions (Friuli, Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Aosta) and the southernmost ones (Sicilia, Calabria, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata) and even in these regions the young people speaks mostly italian-toscano.

    When I was in Sassari, Sardiny, on the streets, almost everything I heard when listening to the local people was italian-toscano, I only watched a group of adult-young people speaking in sardo.
    Nearly everyone can speak/understand Emilian in the villages, even the younger ones, it's just that big cities are full of lazy terroni who don't usually want to learn the language. Plus Bologna is a student city where something like 70% of the students is of terrone extraction if I were to make a guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by savvas View Post
    Nearly everyone speaks Emilian in the villages, even the younger ones, it's just that big cities are full of lazy terroni who don't usually want to learn the language. Plus Bologna is a student city where something like 70% of the students is of terrone extraction if I were to make a guess.
    Certo

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    Preserve these dialects is good but people should start to learn a good Italian first. Sometimes i see and hear things that scare me...

    It's already hard to find a good job if you speak Italian only no to mention if you speak only these dialects...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffmannn View Post
    When I used to live in Bologna I never met anybody from there that could speak the local emiliano-romagnolo dialect.

    It seems that in big parts of Italy the dialects are barely spoken nowadays, except the northernmost regions (Friuli, Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Aosta) and the southernmost ones (Sicilia, Calabria, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata) and even in these regions the young people speaks mostly italian-toscano.

    When I was in Sassari, Sardiny, on the streets, almost everything I heard when listening to the local people was italian-toscano, I only watched a group of adult-young people speaking in sardo.
    This is because in Sassari since the middle ages they don't speak Sardinian but Sassarese, a not-Sardinian language born from the Pisan-Genoese colonization in Porto Torres. It's basically a kind of ancient Tuscan + 20% of Sardinian vocabulary. So, if you want to hear people speaking Sardinian, Sassari is not the right place to go, you should go to whatever village of the province.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duffmannn View Post
    Also was a little shocking for me that in an island as Sardiny most people I met, even the "old" (50-60 years) communicate themselves exclusivily on italian-toscano.
    Always in Sassari? It's typical Sassarese attitude. In every village of the province they would be looked as aliens and immediately labeled as "Continentales".

    Sassarese language belongs to the same family of Corsican language :

    see map
    Spoiler!
    Last edited by Mens-Sarda; 07-29-2019 at 04:10 PM.
    Non Auro, Sed Ferro, Recuperanda Est Patria (Not by Gold, But by Iron, Is the Nation to be Recovered) - Marcus Furius Camillus (Roman General)

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    Quote Originally Posted by savvas View Post
    From wiki,

    The dialect of Comacchio is a dialect of the Emilian-Romagnol language spoken in Comacchio and connected to the dialects of some neighbouring municipalities of the Province of Ferrara.

    Because of the phonetic characteristics and the isolated geographical position of Comacchio, the Comacchiese is an independent dialect from the Ferrara area, and therefore forms a subgroup right inside the Emilian. Biondelli considered it a Ferrarese dialect, albeit with a certain independence.

    The Comacchiese is spoken only in the town of Comacchio (Cmac'). In its fractions Porto Garibaldi (Magnavache) and San Giuseppe (Funtèane), there is instead a Ferrarese dialect hybridized with Comacchiese. To the west, in the municipality of Lagosanto (Lag) there is a dialect with peculiar characteristics and in part common to Comacchiese, while in the north in the municipality of Codigoro (Codgòr) and in the Massa Fiscaglia district of the municipality of Fiscaglia , there is a dialect of Ferrarese with characteristics typical of the area and common to both Lagosanto, Mesola and Goro. Portomaggiore and Ostellato are located within the area of ​​the Middle Ferrara and therefore have dialectological characteristics common to the Copparo and Ferrara citizens. Comacchiese influences do not exceed the northern boundary of the municipality, as the dialect of Goro is Venetian with some Ferrarese traits; to the south, in parallel, the dialects of Longastrino, Anita, Sant'Alberto and Porto Corsini are fully Romagnol. To the east the municipality of Comacchio is bathed by the Adriatic Sea, a very important contact with Venice.
    I've tried to listen the videos, I can't understand a word. In the written text I could understand isolated words here and there.
    Non Auro, Sed Ferro, Recuperanda Est Patria (Not by Gold, But by Iron, Is the Nation to be Recovered) - Marcus Furius Camillus (Roman General)

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    What I often notice about many Italian dialects is that they sound like a kind of Italian with a lot of abbreviations and truncated words. While in Sardinian there are no abbreviations at all, or very rarely. Every word and verb is spelt entirely and clearly.

    Just for comparison

    Parable of the Prodigal Son in Comacchiese / Italian / Sardinian (Logudorese-Nuorese) :

    Spoiler!
    Non Auro, Sed Ferro, Recuperanda Est Patria (Not by Gold, But by Iron, Is the Nation to be Recovered) - Marcus Furius Camillus (Roman General)

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