Does dark Irish and Brits related to Southern Europeans?

[Hellenas]

Continued from this thread: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...West-Europeans

Grace O'Malley

Yes but populations still don't cluster together and you were saying that Irish and Brits are closer to Southern Europeans than some other populations like Germans when this is incorrect. We all aren't the exact same either which is why we all don't cluster together and some populations even within Europe are quite distant from each other. Certain populations have more in common with each other than others.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? If you look at any cluster maps Irish & British etc are Northern Europeans and their closest populations are Dutch, Scandinavians, Northern French. Anyway here are the populations Irish are closest to using G25. They are also closer to a lot of Eastern European populations before any Southern Europeans. This is just facts and no judgement is placed on this. I don't agree with a lot of threads on here but you are just feeding into the same rubbish. I'm very interested in genetics so I've read a lot about Irish genetics. There have been some very good studies done so people have access to this information.

Using G25 here is population distance for the Irish. Much more comprehensive than using one category of a mixed component from Dodecad. Irish are definitely Northerners I'm baffled why you would try to deny this? They are geographically in Northwest Europe and cluster with Northern European populations.

1 Irish:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.929
3 Irish:Average English_Averaged Averaged 1.122
5 Irish:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 1.334
6 Irish:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.39
8 Irish:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.399
9 Irish:Average French_Brittany_Averaged Averaged 1.409
12 Irish:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.589
16 Irish:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.659
27 Irish:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 1.818
161 Irish:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.701
175 Irish:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.762
244 Irish:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 3.076
514 Irish:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 4.134
524 Irish:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 4.175
544 Irish:Average French_Averaged Averaged 4.24
552 Irish:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 4.262
674 Irish:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 4.777
732 Irish:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 5.113
847 Irish:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 5.785
856 Irish:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 5.816
904 Irish:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 6.095
1013 Irish:Average Polish_Averaged Averaged 6.646
1036 Irish:Average Bosnian_Averaged Averaged 6.8
1073 Irish:Average Montenegrin_Averaged Averaged 7.042
1080 Irish:Average French_South_Averaged Averaged 7.08
1094 Irish:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco_Averaged Averaged 7.184
1098 Irish:Average Spanish_Cataluna_Averaged Averaged 7.233
1115 Irish:Average Spanish_Cantabria_Averaged Averaged 7.305
1125 Irish:Average Basque_French_Averaged Averaged 7.371
1133 Irish:Average Ukrainian_Averaged Averaged 7.421
1144 Irish:Average Serbian_Averaged Averaged 7.481
1146 Irish:Average Romanian_Averaged Averaged 7.486
1168 Irish:Average Cossack_Ukrainian_Averaged Averaged 7.585
1170 Irish:Average Spanish_Aragon_Averaged Averaged 7.588
1172 Irish:Average Spanish_Valencia_Averaged Averaged 7.594
1189 Irish:Average Spanish_Baleares_Averaged Averaged 7.648
1209 Irish:Average Basque_Spanish_Averaged Averaged 7.787
1221 Irish:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon_Averaged Averaged 7.841
1231 Irish:Average Russian_Orel_Averaged Averaged 7.879
1250 Irish:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha_Averaged Averaged 7.941
1251 Irish:Average Russian_Voronez_Averaged Averaged 7.942
1259 Irish:Average Finnish_Averaged Averaged 7.966
1278 Irish:Average Russian_Kursk_Averaged Averaged 8.073
1291 Irish:Average Russian_Smolensk_Averaged Averaged 8.13
1293 Irish:Average Spanish_Galicia_Averaged Averaged 8.138
1313 Irish:Average Portuguese_Averaged Averaged 8.223
1315 Irish:Average Spanish_Andalucia_Averaged Averaged 8.25
1333 Irish:Average Spanish_Extremadura_Averaged Averaged 8.354
1340 Irish:Average Bulgarian_Averaged Averaged 8.366
1341 Irish:Average Macedonian_Averaged Averaged 8.374
1349 Irish:Average Spanish_Murcia_Averaged Averaged 8.408
1352 Irish:Average UKR_Cimmerian_Averaged Averaged 8.414
1360 Irish:Average Russian_Tver_Averaged Averaged 8.452
1376 Irish:Average Cossack_Kuban_Averaged Averaged 8.51
1394 Irish:Average Ingrian_Averaged Averaged 8.609
1397 Irish:Average Moldavian_Averaged Averaged 8.639
1480 Irish:Average Russian_Kostroma_Averaged Averaged 9.076
1523 Irish:Average Mordovian_Averaged Averaged 9.422
1543 Irish:Average Lithuanian_Averaged Averaged 9.571
1599 Irish:Average Finnish_East_Averaged Averaged 9.95
1618 Irish:Average Karelian_Averaged Averaged 10.055
1632 Irish:Average Italian_Tuscan_Averaged Averaged 10.153
1669 Irish:Average Latvian_Averaged Averaged 10.386
1672 Irish:Average Albanian_Averaged Averaged 10.405
1704 Irish:Average Vepsian_Averaged Averaged 10.596
1718 Irish:Average Greek_Averaged Averaged 10.739
1777 Irish:Average Russian_Pinega_Averaged Averaged 11.452
1848 Irish:Average Sicilian_West_Averaged Averaged 12.479
1883 Irish:Average Italian_South_Averaged Averaged 12.843
1917 Irish:Average Sicilian_East_Averaged Averaged 13.305
1992 Irish:Average Ashkenazi_Jew_Averaged Averaged 13.972
2007 Irish:Average Turkish_Istanbul_Averaged Averaged 14.062

I didn't say they they are closer, I mean French(who are much more Med admixed than Irish and Brits) and Iberians with Irish and Brits. I didn't say Irish are closer to South Europeans than Germans, it was Lily who said that dark haired Northern Europeans are not related at all to South Europeans and I said Irish are closer to South Europeans than other Northern Europeans(I meant Scandinavians). Germans are not really Northern Europeans, more Central Europeans.

Anyway I am only talking about the genetics of the dark Irish.


Irish are bertween Iberians, French and Norwegians, Swedes.

What's the Racial Reality link got to do with this thread anyway?

It explains why race denials and claims such as "anthropology is pdeudo-science" are wrong. Better genetics get along with anthropology, if we want to have right conclusions.

Not sure what the point you are trying to make but most Irish would be some type of brown hair, blue eyes and fair skin. Black hair is definitely not prevalent.

After calling Anthropology as pseudo-science now you are entering in anthropological fields?

Anthropological data already posted but let's post them again.


John Beddoe on Irish

Blond hairs has only the 21% in the "Teutonic" areas, under 10% in the "Celtic" areas and in the intermediate areas 13-17%.

Majority has brown or dark brown hairs. Black hairs 20% in the more "Celtic" areas.

Red hairs only 5%.

Most Irish are brown and dark brown haired and there also are many black haired people. Like a mixture of Central and South Europeans.

You can translate from Greek, the study is in French: http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2016/12/blog-post_13.html


The Peoples of Northern Ireland

By Thomas Walmsley and John M. Mogey

Ancient chronicles describe Irish, sometimes blond, sometimes with brown hair and sometimes with black. The writers find that as early as antiquity they are outlined... four types: a tall blonde, a tall darker, a short chestnut and a short dark-haired. It appears that in the south and west of the country there are dark meso-dolichocephals, while the blonds are located in the east. Also, most bracycephals have low stature and brown hair. Also, the most common combination is dark hair with light eyes.

In a few words, in Northern Ireland, we find the phenotypes that generally exist in Ireland, with Cromagnoids, Atlantoids, and some Mediterraneans, Nordics and Alpines.

Translate from "The anthropology of Northern Ireland"
http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2017/09/blog-post_29.html

And read that: The Peoples of Northern Ireland: An Anthropometric Survey
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...c--t53229.html

Dodecad is quite old now and Atlanto-Med is a very mixed bag and combines a lot of different components and you can see it is very broad and looks mostly a Western component i.e. look how the Greeks have less of it and Turks etc.

Obviously the Mediterranean admixture in the British isles came from Iberia.

Why even say that is less to Greeks and Turks? Why to put those populations together? Those two populations are not related neither cluster together, especially Greeks with Turks or other West Asians. Greeks related to Italians and Balkanians. I didn't say Atlantic-Med admixture is much to Greeks, to South Italians and Albanians. It probanly is 10-15% to those populations or even less.

Southern Europeans also have more recent Levantine admixture also which most likely makes them more distant as well.

Levantine/West Asian/North African admixture to South Europeans and Balkanians is not much to make them distant or more distant from other European populations. It's just noise. All Europeans cluster together.

Anyway I've always found Dodecad not a very good calculator. I and my family were always very distant from the Irish on that so not sure what is going on with Dodecad's Irish sample? Anyway even looking at something like Atlanto-Mediterranean what does it tell you? Not a lot because all those populations don't cluster together.

It tells me that West Med admixture peaks to Basques and also that can be mostly found to Spaniards. It shows its origin and from where it spread in the North.

Anthropology is definitely pseudo-science. Why would you use something that was used before there was dna and genetics? It has been shown to be mostly inaccurate anyway. No scientist now would use Anthropology to categorise people.

Anthropology is not anything pseudo, anthropology studies the human features.

Race Denial
http://racialreality.blogspot.com/se.../Race%20Denial

The Irish aren't close to any Southern European population. They are closest to other Northern Europeans and then Eastern Europeans before Southern European populations.

None of the Northern European nation is pure Northern genetically

Anyway, don't confuse genetics with phenotype, genetics are not even connected yet to anthropological features. You can be genetically Northern European and Anthropologically to be Southern, as well as the opposite.

It's obvious the people you posted didn't look Irish.

It's obvious by who, by Lily who confused them with Irish when she is Irish herself(I just don't know how much Irish ancestry she has)? Well it's not obvious at all! Quite the opposite!

Irish don't have any special connection to Southern Europeans which is obvious looking at genetic studies.

It's not obvious at all because they connected with Med French and Med Iberians. From where do you think they took this dark pigmentation they have? Those who have it.

The bulk of the Irish genome was laid down in the Bronze Age with Bell Beakers. You said that Brits and Irish are closer to Southern Europeans than Germans for instance but that's not correct at all.

I didn't say that.

German are significantly closer to Southern Europeans which is not surprising given their central location in Europe. The Irish are very distant to Greeks. Dutch are a little closer to Southern Euros but that's neither here nor there but I just mention it to make the point that Irish are as much Northern Europeans as any other population in that area.

Northern and Central Europeans are not even pure Northern genetically.








So much Med admixture.

These things are easily shown so it's not like people don't have the information. Why would Irish be closer to Southern Europeans than other populations they cluster with? It's not like there is anything particularly better about what populations you are closer to but I don't know why people state things that are not correct?

You are not correct! I never said Irish are closer to Southern Europeans than to those they more cluster with!

If someone has dark hair their genetics are the same as other people of their ethnicity.

You confuse genetics with anthropological features, none connects the dark features of Irish to their genetics. Genetics =/= Anthropological features, they are two different and not much related things, yet!

A dark haired Norwegian would cluster with a blond Norwegian and a dark Greek would cluster with a blond Greek. Having dark hair isn't any indicator that your genetics are different than your fellow countrymen.

Genetics cannot tell us much about phenotypes, about racial types or pigmentation, yet!

You're not using cherrypicked pictures to find connections between populations?

I don't want to find connections between populations but between specific individuals. You just make assumptions on what I do.

Every European population have people that have superficial resemblances.

The resemblance between those I posted are not superficial, they look much alike.

You can even find this with Europeans and Non-Europeans. That really means nothing. Would Sean Connery cluster with Greeks?

Non-Europeans usually differ in many things when they look alike to Europeans, skin color and in many craniofacial features etc. A European who looks alike to an other European looks much more alike to him than a non European who looks alike to a European.

How can you know if Sean Connery cluster with Greeks or not? I can tell you his face can be often seen both in Greece and Italy.

What's your objective?

I will not tell you my objective but your objective = Dark haired, dark eyed and craniofacially Southern looking Northern Europeans are only Northern Europeans, clustering only with Northern Europeans and having nothing at all to do with Southern Europeans. All people on the North of Europe are Northern Europeans = that's your objective, right? I call this as race denial!

Are you trying to find some connection between Greeks and Irish/Brits?

I am not trying anything, there are racial and phenotypical connections between all Europeans.

Irish and Greeks for example are on opposite poles as far as Europe.

Sean Connery is Scottish, Christopher Lee was English, George Harrison was English, Rufus Sewell is English(of Welsh and Australian origin), kit harington is English and Thomas John Ellis is Welsh.

How can I post Scots, English and Welsh who look much like Greeks by trying to find connections between Greeks and Irish? I just showed the resemblance of some Brits with Greeks but not with the Irish.

Do you know there even are references that ancient Greeks travelled in the British Isles, migrating and settling there?

They have different settlement histories and different genetics. Most other Europeans are closer to Irish over Greeks and vice versa. There's nothing wrong with that either just that the populations aren't connected which shouldn't be surprising since the Irish are at the opposite end of Europe to the Greeks. Otherwise what are you trying to show here?

Sorry to tell you but the 40-50% of Neolithic admixture Brits and Irish have came from the Aegean.

Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegeans
https://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886

Neolithic Aegean genomes
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2016/06...n-genomes.html


Whatever admixtures they have those who curry this Neolithic admixture, they still preserve some Aegean phenotypes or features, that's the explanation I give to the resemblances.

Funny even trying to disconnect Europeans with those closer population clusters when they all cluster through EEF, HG and Yamnaya admixtures.

After all, all Europeans cluster together. If you are closer to one or to another population this cannot disconnect you from all other Europeans. We are all a genetic and anthropological family, either we like it or not.

Anyway what is needed are individual genetic results of each dark Brit and even better waiting for further development of genetics, explaining the origins of pigmentation.

[Hellenas]

The Mediterranean Reλmergence in Great Britain

The Atlanto-Mediterraneans were not the only members of the Mediterranean stock to invade Great Britain; smaller Mediterraneans are commonest in Wales and in the former Cymric territory which stretches from the Midlands to Glasgow. With the rise of the industrial revolution, the population increased greatly in these two last named regions, which became the most heavily industrialized areas in Britain; hence the Mediterranean increment in the British population has risen during the last century and a half.

FIG. 1 (3 views). A Lancastrian from Blackburn, a slender, delicaltely built Mediterranean with an extremely narrow nose and mandible. He represents a characteristic Midlands type.



FIG. 2 (3 views). A metrically similar New Englander from a Massachusetts coastal city, of Colonial Yankee lineage. He represents, a reλmergence or survival within the New England stock of the same British Mediterranean element.



FIG. 3 (3 views). A Welshman from the neighborhood of Cardiff. An absolutely great head length, a heavier facial structure, and a less leptorrhine nose form indicate a different Mediterranean sub-type from the two above.



FIG. 4 (3 views). A Mediterranean Scotsman from Paisley; typical of the industrial population of the Glasgow district.



https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/troeplate25.htm



Blue-eyed Atlanto-Mediterraneans

As was seen in the case of the Basque on Plate 23, there is a tendency in the tall, extremely long-headed Atlanto-Mediterranean race toward a combination of black or dark brown hair and blue eyes. The four men shown on this plate all possess this same pigment combination, all are 170 cm. or over in stature, have head lengths well over 200 mm., and form a unit in regard to general anthropometric and morphological position. All come from regions near the sea, and touched by Megalithic navigators.


FIG. 3 (3 views). A black-haired Irishman from County Donegal. The Neolithic invaders of Ireland were apparently all or nearly all of this tall, sea-borne Mediterranean variety. This individual is aberrant in head breadth, but otherwise typical.



FIG. 4 (3 views). A Scotsman from Ayrshire. An excellent example of the British Long Barrow type and a direct Neolithic survival.



https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/troeplate24.htm




ATLANTO-MEDITERRANID (Littoral European (Deniker))


Atlanto-Mediterranid
(after Biasutti)

Tall, straight-nosed and strongly dolichocephalic Mediterranid type, the living equivalent of the skeletal Megalithic type (in the typology of Coon). It is markedly taller and more robust than the Gracile-Mediterranean type, by which it is outnumbered, and with which it is often mixed. The Atlanto-Mediterranid type is an important population element in the Iberian peninsula (prevailing in Catalonia and Valencia), in Italy, and northward along the western European coast, reaching the British Isles in mixed form (cf. North-Atlantid). Coon subsumed all tall-statured Mediterranids (including Pontid) in the Atlanto-Mediterranid category.

http://www.nordish.org/gloss1.htm#ATLANTO-MEDITERRANID


ATLANTID (Nordo-Mediterranid)

1) With reference to partially depigmented northern Mediterranids, as in von Eickstedt's 1935 publication "Die Mediterranen in Wales"; 2) A generic designation, of more recent popular reference, for the entire range of Nordid-Atlanto-Mediterranid/Mediterranid blends, typically of dark pigmentation, which may be found throughout western Europe, particularly along the coast. Cf. North-Atlantid.

http://www.nordish.org/gloss1.htm#ATLANTID


NORTH-ATLANTID (~ Northwestern (Deniker))


North-Atlantid

Predominantly Nordid (Keltic Nordid) blend with an Atlanto-Mediterranid strain. North-Atlantids are typically dark-haired and light-eyed, and constitute an important element in the British Isles, and particularly in Wales. SNPA account here.

http://www.nordish.org/gloss2.htm#NORTH-ATLANTID



NORTH-ATLANTID

Etymology:

The term was coined by Bertil Lundman (Nord-atlantid), and derives from the association of the type with the North Atlantic shores.


Other names:

- Northwestern (Deniker; mostly synonymous)


Origins:

Re-emergence of a Mesolithic/Neolithic Atlanto-Mediterranid strain through a chrysalis of Nordish types; the Mediterranid strain, primarily associated with the western European coastal culture of the Megaliths, is one of the locally oldest racial strains in Britain, only predated by the Paleolithic settlements of Cro-Magnids ("Brünn") following the Last Glacial Maximum.


Description:

The North-Atlantid takes an intermediate morphological and anthropometric position between the tall Atlanto-Mediterranid and Nordish (chiefly Nordid) types involved in its formation, but the latter elements predominate, and the impression is more usually of an "exotic Nordid" phenotype than of a "nordicized Mediterranid" one.

North-Atlantids are essentially characterized by dolichocephaly, leptoprosopy and leptorrhiny. Pigmentation is relatively light. Hair color runs from dark brown to almost black, whereas eye pigmentation is typically light - blue and green eyes are the rule. The skin is seldom darker than the northern European mean..


Illustrations:

Celebrity examples:


Pierce Brosnan(Ireland)


Jennifer Connelly(USA)


Gary Cooper(USA)


Mathew Goode(England)


Geographical distribution:

The type is most highly concentrated in coastal areas of Ireland, Wales and Scotland, and has dispersed around most of the British Isles. Its connection to similar continental types inhabiting adjacent coastal areas establishes it as a northern extreme of the Atlantid gradient, which terminates in the southwestern Atlanto-Mediterranid type.


Related or similar types:

- Atlanto-Mediterranid

http://www.nordish.org/rg-north.htm

[nafz]

Some Irish can indeed look dark but I don't think these types resemble much Med Europeans. Out of the plates you posted only this one comes close:



The Neolithic Aegean Migration you talked about happened 6000 years ago and since then Ireland and Britain have been overrun with countless other ethnicities, notably celts, gauls, normans, angles, saxons, vikings etc. I don't think the Aegean neolithic people really have left a strong genetic footprint as suggested.

Interesting post anyway.

[Kivan]

Some Irish can indeed look dark but I don't think these types resemble much Med Europeans.

Because most of these people are not Mediterraneans. They are just dark-haired Nordid or Nordocromagnids. British and Irish hardly show Mediterranean influence, i've seen plenty of them and most looked CM(generally Brünn and Borreby) and Tronder/Nordocromagnid.

[Hellenas]

Welsh Are the Most Ancient Britons


The Welsh (and Cornish) may be the Sardinians of the UK: relatively pure descendants of prehistoric Britons, minimally altered by post-Neolithic gene flow. Interestingly, they and Sardinians are each the darkest and most racially Mediterranean populations in their respective countries, having the highest rates of black hair and brown eyes and the lowest rates of blondism (Coon, 1939: Ch. X, Sec. 3 and Ch. XI, Sec. 16).



Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.

Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.

Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.

The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.

Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.

Prof Donnelly, a professor of statistical science at Oxford University and director of the Wellcome Trust centre for human genetics, said DNA samples were analysed at about 500,000 different points.

After comparing statistics, a map was compiled which showed Wales and Cornwall stood out.

Prof Donnelly said: "People from Wales are genetically relatively distinct, they look different genetically from much of the rest of mainland Britain, and actually people in north Wales look relatively distinct from people in south Wales."

While there were traces of migrant groups across the UK, there were fewer in Wales and Cornwall.

He said people from south and north Wales genetically have "fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

"And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago".


Mountains

He said it was possible that people came over from Ireland to north Wales because it was the closest point, and the same for people coming to south Wales from the continent, as it was nearer.

However he added: "We don't really have the historical evidence about what those genetic inputs were."

The geography of Wales made it more likely that ancient DNA would be retained.

Because of its westerly position and mountainous nature, Anglo-Saxons who moved into central and eastern England after the Romans left did not come that far west, and neither did the Vikings who arrived in around 900AD.

The professor said modern people from central and southern England had many genetic similarities to modern people in Denmark and Germany.

The mountains were also the reason why DNA may have remained relatively unchanged, as people would have found it harder to get from north to south Wales or into England compared with people trying to move across the flatter southern English counties, making them more likely to marry locally and conserve more ancient DNA.

"In north Wales, there has been relative isolation because people moved less because of geographical barriers," Prof Donnelly said.

He added that some of these factors also held true for the extreme edges of Scotland, while the Orkney islands showed DNA connections to Norway.

The next stage of the research will looking at physical similarities between different groups, in which the team will use photographs of people and make 3D models to measure quantitative similarities between related groups.

https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2...t-britons.html

[Hellenas]

'Celts' Are Not Really Celtic


Famous 'Celtic' nations may be misnamed

Genetic studies hint at unexpected origins of clans

Sept. 9, 2004

DUBLIN, Ireland - Celtic nations like Ireland and Scotland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with "Celts" — the name commonly used for a group of people from ancient Alpine Europe, scientists say.

"There is a received wisdom that the origin of the people of these islands lie in invasions or migrations ... but the affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin," said Daniel Bradley, co-author of a genetic study into Celtic origins.

Early historians believed the Celts — thought to have come from an area to the east of modern France and south of Germany — invaded the Atlantic islands around 2,500 years ago.

But archaeologists have recently questioned that theory, and now Bradley, from Trinity College Dublin, and his team, say DNA evidence supports their thinking.

Geneticists used DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and compared the genetic traits with those of people in other parts of Europe.

The study showed that people in Celtic areas — Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall — had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common with people from the Iberian Peninsula.

"What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older ... 6,000 years ago or earlier," Bradley told Reuters.

He said people may have moved up from areas around modern-day Portugal and Spain at the end of the Ice Age.

The similarities between Atlantic "Celts" could also suggest these areas had good levels of communications with one another, he added.

But the study could not determine whether the common genetic traits meant "Celtic" nations would look alike or have similar temperaments. Dark or red hair and freckles are considered Celtic features.

https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2...ly-celtic.html

[Hellenas]

King Richard III Reconstruction










https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2...struction.html

[Hellenas]

Some Irish can indeed look dark but I don't think these types resemble much Med Europeans. Out of the plates you posted only this one comes close:

I can't say about Iberians because I don't know much about Iberian phenotypes.

Those facially could easily pass in Italy







And those pass both in Greece and Italy





This could also pass in Greece but it's not so common



Close to this Greek

The Neolithic Aegean Migration you talked about happened 6000 years ago and since then Ireland and Britain have been overrun with countless other ethnicities, notably celts, gauls, normans, angles, saxons, vikings etc. I don't think the Aegean neolithic people really have left a strong genetic footprint as suggested.

Interesting post anyway.

Brits are 40-50% Neolithics genetically.

[Bellbeaking]

Potentially interesting thread, but its not 100% clear what you are attempting to convey possibly due to a language barrier. Darker Irish or Brits are just the same as normal looking ones gentically, dark phenos are native to all of North Europe, but have been selected against over the last 4k years, the selection has probably been stronger in some places than others, Steppe, WHG where also dark-ish featured some time ago, EEF may even have been lighter than WHG people. I am not sure exactly why Ireland and Britian have a larger range of skin pigmentation than other northern European countries, a smaller number of more dominant alleles would explain this phenomenon statistically though.

The irish don't quite break 40% Neolithic Farmer, Neolithic ancestry is fairly low in Ireland/scotland/north wales/england. The south English do have high neolithic though, possibly thanks to iron age french/celtic migrations from further south, but English people are more of a central european people than a northern european or british isles group in many ways. But yah the Irish and Welsh are the darkest haired north euros (followed by scottish,belgian,english), obviously they selected for rufousity over blondism.

[Hellenas]

Great Britain, General Survey

Carleton Coon


Black hair

both the Scotch and the Irish have somewhat higher increments of black hair than England with Wales; and if Wales is studied separately, England emerges as the lightest haired of the four major divisions of the British Isles, and Wales as the darkest.

In England, black hair ranges from nearly 0 to 10 per cent, except in Devonshire and Cornwall, where it reaches a maximum of 20 per cent in the region of Penzance.

In Wales, 10 per cent of the total have black hair, and only 8 per cent are fair in the English sense. Dark brown predominates over medium brown,

In Scotland black hair ranges among adults from 0 to 8 per cent by counties

Tocher finds that jet black hair is commoner in the western highlands than elsewhere


Dark brown hair

the British have more light brown, and the Irish more dark brown, shades

Dark brown hair accounts for 14 per cent to 43 per cent of the population in the different parts of England.

In Wales dark brown predominates over medium brown. Beddoe finds as much as 86 to 89 per cent of black and dark brown hair in such places as Newquay and Denbighshire Upland.

In Scotland Dark brown hair accounts for 38 per cent of the population;

Glasgow, which is not only the largest city in Scotland but also the second largest in the British Isles, is notable for a heavy concentration of dark brown hair


Mediterraneans and Med admixtures


brunet Mediterranean; difficult to isolate in Ireland, have survived or reλmerged in large numbers in Wales and in the manufacturing districts of the Midlands and of Scotland.

In the Glasgow district, as in the Midlands, slum conditions and factory existence have brought about a reλmergence of the older Mediterranean element in the population, submerged since the Neolithic;

The majority of the brunet dolichocephals, however, belong rather to the Long Barrow race of Megalithic introduction from the eastern Mediterranean shorelands.

Among individual Welshmen it is possible to pick out individuals of a smaller Mediterranean type, similar to that of Spain and Portugal, and suggesting a survival from the Neolithic peoples of Windmill Hill cultural affiliation who entered southern Britain from the continent. This type is also easily isolated in the Midland factory districts, and among the Glasgow population. In Wales, however, it is difficult to separate it from the Long Barrow type, with which it is frequently associated.

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X3.htm


The British Isles, Summary

two varieties of brunet Mediterranean, of which the sea-borne Atlanto-Mediterranean is the more important;

In England, the Germanic element is the most distinctive; in Wales it is the Atlanto-Mediterranean; in Scotland it is a combination of Bronze Age and Scandinavian elements in the northeast, of Irish with Atlanto-Mediterranean in the west;

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X4.htm


Eickstedt

He considers that Britain was inhabited by brown dolichocephalics, who were close to the Mediterranean type, even before the Neolithic era. Later, up to 2000 BC. entered the land brachycephalics, who probably corresponded to the Alpine type or to the Dinaric. Later, from 1000 BC and then, the Nordics came, with successive invasions reaching up to historical times.

Eickstedt introduces for the first time the term Atlantid type (the one commonly referred to as North Atlantid) to describe the brown dolichocephals of Britain, who are between the Mediterranean and the Nordic type, having high stature and light-colored eyes, unlike the classic Mediterranean who is of a lower stature and has dark eye color. Eickstedt finds in Wales both types, the classic Mediterranean and the Atlantid.

In conclusion, Eickstedt finds Nordids, Atlantids, Mediterraneans and Alpines in Britain. The Cromagnoids are not mentioned, but because of the excessive percentages of Nordics he refers and because he refers light hairs and not necessarily blond, logically he includes part of the Cromagnoids.

http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2018/06/blog-post_25.html



Paul Topinard

England is a country with an apparent diversity in pigmentation. There are people with dark traits but also people with very light traits. This is due to the native population, that as it seems had darker traits than the Anglo-Saxon conquerors who imposed the ethnonym England.

The data comes from the English Anthropologist John Beddoe. In 200 observations, the results are those of the table below.



Hair color

Black 3%
Dark brown 37%
Intermediate brown 34,5%
Blond 20%
Red 5,5%

Blonds are about 1/5 of the population.


http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2018/01/blog-post_11.html



Memoirs του British Association for the Advancement of Science

In the first research, in 1027 observations, the hair color is distributed according to the following diagram:



14,21% has blond hairs, 19,08% has brown, το 57,65% has dark hair, brown or light brown and the 9,06% has red.

The data shows that the British are Atlantids, Cromagnoids, Nordids and few are Alpines.

http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2015/08/blog-post_19.html



Felix von Luschan

We see a clear prevalence of dolichocephaly, with a small percentage entering the mesocephaly. 78,9% are dolichocephals, 13,7% are mesocephals and 7,4% are brachycephals.

The data from the von Luschan study lead us to the following conclusions. In England, the majority of the population is dolichocephalic, leptoprosopic(thin faced) and leptorrhine (thin nosed).

These data refer to Atlantids and Nordids we know to live there, as well as to Cromagnoid forms. It cannot be excluded that sporadically in England can be found some Alpines.

In general, it seems that the English are Cromagnoids, Atlantids and Nordids.

http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2015/06/blog-post_24.html