Sorbs Ydna

[MagnusDark]

So is your point that before 1618 the region could be even more Slavic?

Of course. But Lukasz claims that Mecklenburg is like Lower Saxons autosomally.

And that's not true, the Neustadt German is close to East Germans and very different than the Hamburg German (who actually has 1/8 of Polish-Masurian admixture and yet is still much more Germanic).

Not necessarily. My point was if the re-settlement didn't occur and all the R1a is a local re-growth as you mention from its survivors then it should show closer MRCA in YDNA. However, if Lukasz is right about the re-settlement after the massacre, then one would expect these assimilated R1a to be very distant from those 400 years ago.

I was merely trying to look at it from both angles. That is one to one German you're comparing. You can't possibly take autosomal of one individual and claim the whole area is an exact reflection of them. That's ludicrous. Should be similar sure but not exact.

Albanians are far more homogeneous and there are some very different plotting that come from my area with all grandparents coming from the same. Using your reasoning we should have the same autosomal break down, yet thats not always the case.

You're also forgetting autosomal recombination occurs at random, and one can inherit more from one ancestry than another. Making them more like mother or father etc.

There is a Lithuanian user on Eupedia whose ancestor migrated from Germany probably during Prussia/Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, with the surname Gotta, and that surname is most common in Hesse. He has little to no German admixture though because that can change very quickly in 300 years.

[Peterski]

I told you that the Neustadt kit has confirmed genealogy - all ancestors from villages around Neustadt in Mecklenburg back to year 1700. There is no any recent Polish ancestor there. And yet this Neustadt kit can be modeled as 1/2 Hamburg German + 1/2 Polish, despite the fact that there is only few kilometers between these places (Hamburg and Neustadt).

PS:

I agree that other people from the same region can have different results, but as you said they should be generally quite similar to each other (unless they have ancestors who migrated from other regions).

Not necessarily. My point was if the re-settlement didn't occur and all the R1a is a local re-growth as you mention from its survivors then it should show closer MRCA in YDNA.

Actually, it should not.

If the population of 10,000 is reduced to 5,000 there is not going to be a new MRCA.

MRCA always takes place when there is only one man alive (or several men alive, but only one of them has children) with a given subclade.

If a subclade numbered one carrier in 500 AD, growing to 10,000 carriers in 1618 and then declining to 5,000 carriers in 1648 - then the TMRCA for this subclade is still 500 AD, not 1648.

You're also forgetting autosomal recombination occurs at random, and one can inherit more from one ancestry than another. Making them more like mother or father etc.

That is true for rare individual cases, but that is not how it works statistically on population level. There are 100,000,000 Mestizos in Mexico and they are not going to magically turn 100% European or 100% Amerindian again. They will keep reproducing their 50% Euro + 50% Amerindian genetics in every new generation.

Sure one Mestizo can be 55% Euro + 45% Native and his brother can be 45% Euro + 55% Native, due to random inheritance, but as a population they will preserve the 50/50 proportion if they keep marrying each other.

Just like Slavic admixture of East Germans is not going to disappear.

[MoroLP]

Based on a 2013 paper Y-DNA haplogroup I2 among 123 sampled Upper Sorbs is 4% of which 2.34% is I-CTS10228 and was already said I-PH908 was 0%

We also have a known frequency of 303 samples on 17-loci from Leipzig. Reportedly the haplogroup I2 was 3.97% and all of it was I-CTS10228 and I-PH908 was 0.33%

Besides these know results since 2008 are filed other more numerous population samples from Saxony at YHRD on Minimal haplotype but still informative for haplogroup and (sub)clade frequency information: 1114 from Leipzig, 743 from Chemnitz, 234 from Halle (Salle), and 88 from Dresden. Seemingly they weren't checked before. Most probably because it is not practical - you need to manually check individual haplotypes to get results and there exist many haplotype variations on a clade and even more on a haplogroup level. The frequency of I-L621 > I-CTS10228 subclades is most significant to the Slavic movement and origin so checked these haplotypes. Used the haplotypes found at YFull and I2a FTDNA project. Some are more some less common. Due to mutations on some markers which are shared by the Dinaric cluster with other clusters am not entirely sure a minority of the haplotypes was correctly designated in the FTDNA project but still checked them. So take that in mind, maybe the frequency will be a bit higher but so the worse if the frequency is still low.

First checked 82 different haplotypes including all from the Germany and Czech Republic within the project. This is the result (click for image):

Leipzig has 24 matches out of 1114 = 2.15%
Chemnitz has 13 out of 743 = 1.75%
Halle has 3 out of 234 = 1.28%
Dresden has 2 out of 88 = 2.27%

40 samples out of 2091 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle) is 1.91%
42 samples out of 2179 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle, Dresden) is 1.93%

Since the population of Saxony and Sorbs is also related to the near Polish population decided to check all Polish haplotypes within the project which brought us to 119 different haplotypes. This is the result (click for image):

Leipzig has 27 matches out of 1114 = 2.42%
Chemnitz has 14 out of 743 = 1.88%
Halle has 3 out of 234 = 1.28%
Dresden has 4 out of 88 = 4.54%

44 samples out of 2091 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle) is 2.10%
48 samples out of 2179 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle, Dresden) is 2.20%

Since hardly remained any more different haplotypes to check and make a substantial influence on the frequency is conclusively confirmed that the frequency of I-L621 > I-CTS10228+ in Saxony is only 2% and varies from less than 2% up to 4% mainly depending on the number of tested samples.