Sorbs Ydna

[Dick]

According to a 2013 and 2015 studies, the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among the Sorbs who speak Upper Sorbian in Lusatia is R1a, which is carried by 65% of the Sorb males. It is followed in frequency by I1 (9.8%), R1b (9.8%), E1b1b (4.9%), I2 (4.1%), J (3.3%) and G (2.4%). Other haplogroups are less than 1%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

Anyone know of more recent studies?

[billErobreren]

65% R1a? Goddamn, that's high! Then again, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg did score high as a whole. Now, I'm curious.

Subbed

[Peterski]

Mecklenburg did score high as a whole.

Because not all of Slavic population of Mecklenburg was exterminated in the Wendish Crusades.

According to Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle", Slavs remained the owners of farms in many areas:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...nd-Brandenburg

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Distribution of ethnic groups around the year 850 AD:



Eastward migration of German peasants after 1100 AD:



Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 57 ("Foundation of the city of Lübeck"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagria



"(...) Count Adolf started building the castle of Segeberg and fortified it. Because the land was ravaged, he sent messengers to many regions, namely to Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia and Frisia, with a message that if they needed more land they were free to come with their families, and they would be given a lot of good fertile land, full of fish and game, rich in vast pastures. He also told Holsatians and Sturmarians: 'Aren't you the ones who conquered Slavic land and obtained it through deaths of your brothers and relatives? So why should you settle as the last ones? Be first, start migrating to this desired land, settle it and benefit from its resources' (...). After that call, huge crowds of people from various nations started coming, together with their families and property, to the land of the Wagrians ruled by Adolf, who promised to give them land.

Holsatians were given safe areas to the west of Segeberg, near the Trave river, including the Zuentineveld [modern Bornhöved] fields as well as everything between the river Schwale up to Agrimesov [modern Grimmeisberg] and up to Lake Plön.

The region of Dargun [modern Warder and Ahrensbök/Stoob] was settled by Westphalians.

The region of Utyn [Eutin] was settled by Hollanders.

The region of Süsel [south-east of Eutin] was settled by Frisians.

The region of Plön still remained depopulated for the time being.

Regions of Starogard [Oldenburg] and Lutjenburg as well as other areas along the sea coast were left for farming to the Slavs, who now had to pay rent to Count Adolf (...)".

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Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 91 (about colonization of Mecklenburg):



"Heinrich, Count of Ratzeburg in the land of Polabian Slavs, brought masses of Westphalian settlers, in order for them to settle in the land of the Slavs. And he divided the land between them. And they built churches, and they started paying taxes from their farming income for the Glory of God. And God's deed started to spread throughout the land of the Slavs under Heinrich's reign, and was completed during the reign of his son, Bernard. On the other hand, Holsatians who settled in Wagria after expulsion of local Slavs, were very zealous when it comes to building new churches, and were very hospitable, but they avoided paying taxes. (...)"

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Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 88 ("About Albrecht the Bear"):



"At that time Slavic lands were ruled by Margrave Albrecht, also known as the Bear, who - thanks to God's grace - managed to conquer large Slavic territories. He captured entire land of Stodoranians, Brezans and many other tribes living at the Elbe and Havel rivers. And he was crushing those of them who were trying to rebel against his rule. When decimated Slavs started to slowly disappear, Albrecht sent messangers to Utrecht and to lands along the Rhine river and also to those who lived along the ocean's coast and suffered a lot from violent storms of the sea - namely Hollanders, Zealanders and Flemish people - and he brought many settlers from among them, and he settled them within Slavic towns and villages. Thanks to that colonization by foreigners, the Bishopric of Brandenburg and Havelberg increased its strength, because the number of churches and tax income increased. But also southern banks of the Elbe river were at that time colonized by Dutch newcomers, they settled lands around Salzwedel, and Balsemerland [around Stendal and Halberstadt], and Marscinerland [between Arneburg and Werben], with many towns and villages, extending as far as the Bohemian Forest. (...)"

[billErobreren]

I was already pretty aware of the Pomeranians of Mecklenburg and Rugen. Sorbs don't really seem to speak a dialect that stems from theirs, like Kashubian. I'm more curious about them. Also, weren't Polabians some kind of Pommeranian offshoot as well? Whatever happened to their language? Is it still around?

[Peterski]

I was already pretty aware of the Pomeranians of Mecklenburg and Rugen. Sorbs don't really seem to speak a dialect that stems from theirs, like Kashubian. I'm more curious about them. Also, weren't Polabians some kind of Pommeranian offshoot as well? Whatever happened to their language? Is it still around?

Yeah, Sorbian is kind of intermediate between Polish and Czecho-Slovak, that's why it is classified as its own separate sub-group of West Slavic.

Polish, Pomeranian and Polabian are all classified as part of the so called Lechitic (basically North-West Slavic) sub-group of West Slavic.

These were the last speakers of Polabian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drevani in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCchow-Dannenberg

[Lucas]

Because not all of Slavic population of Mecklenburg was exterminated in the Wendish Crusades.

According to Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle", Slavs remained the owners of farms in many areas:

Yes, but Mecklemburg and Pomerania were heavily depopulated during 30-years War. And most likely resettled from Lower Saxony and Schleswig which wasn't affected by war.
So number of Slavic descendants in Mecklemburg was much lower after 1650.

[MiloshN]

E1b1b more from I2

[Ayetooey]

E1b1b more from I2

Yup, and ph908 subclade of I2 which is most common in I2 Serbs is 0% in Sorbs.

[Lucas]

Yes, but Mecklemburg and Pomerania were heavily depopulated during 30-years War. And most likely resettled from Lower Saxony and Schleswig which wasn't affected by war.
So number of Slavic descendants in Mecklemburg was much lower after 1650.

Also north Sorbian territory was unaffected by war losses, whic could explain why they survived.

[Peterski]

So number of Slavic descendants in Mecklemburg was much lower after 1650.

As long as we assume that new settlers came from other Non-Slavic regions to replace those lost during the war and plague.

What about Lower Silesia? Check how west of the Oder = huge depopulation, east of the Oder = much smaller depopulation.