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Thread: Nero's insanity (OT from Members of TA: How do you imagine them?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazio View Post
    Put all of them here then, you seem to have a vice to claim things all the time that other people have said without giving the sources... put all of them here (not links, or names of books), show us what they exactly said in its full content... then I'll answer you.
    Because I read this stuff and remember it, I don't have the sources in front of me all the time.

    But here, Cassius Dio:
    After this Nero set his heart on accomplishing what had doubtless always been his desire, namely to make an end of the whole city and realm during his lifetime. 2 At all events, he, like others before him,13 used to call Priam wonderfully fortunate in that he had seen his country and his throne destroyed together. Accordingly he secretly sent out men who pretended to be drunk or engaged in other kinds of mischief, and caused them at first to set fire to one or two or even several buildings in different parts of the city, so that people were at their wits' end, not being able to find any beginning of the trouble nor to put an end to it, though they constantly were aware of many strange sights and sounds. 3 For there was naught to be seen but many fires, as in a camp, and naught to be heard from the talk of the people except such exclamations as "This or that is afire," "Where?" "How did it happen?" "Who kindled it?" "Help?" Extraordinary excitement laid hold on all the citizens in all parts of the city, and they ran about, some in one direction and some in another, as if distracted. 4 Here men while assisting their neighbours would learn that their own premises were afire; there others, before 20 reached them that their own houses had caught fire, would be told that they were destroyed. Those who were inside their houses would run out into the narrow streets thinking that they could save them from the outside, while people in the streets would rush into the dwellings in the hope of accomplishing something inside. 5 There was shouting and wailing without end, of children, women, men, and the aged all together, so that no one could see thing or understand what was said by reason of the smoke and the shouting; and for this reason some might be seen standing speechless, as if they were dumb. 6 Meanwhile many who were carrying out their goods and many, too, who were stealing the property of others, kept running into one another and falling over their burdens. It was not possible to go forward nor yet to stand still, but people pushed and were pushed in turn, upset others and were themselves upset. 7 Many were suffocated, many were trampled underfoot; in a word, no evil that can possibly happen to people in such a crisis failed to befall to them. They could not even escape anywhere easily; and if anybody did save himself from the immediate danger, he would fall into another and perish.

    17 1 Now this did not all take place on a single day, but it lasted for several days and nights alike. Many houses were destroyed for want of anyone to help save them, and many others were set on fire by the same men who came to lend assistance; for the soldiers, including the night watch, having an eye to plunder, instead of putting out fires, kindled new ones. 2 While such scenes were occurring at various points, a wind caught up the flames and carried them indiscriminately against all the buildings that were left. Consequently no one concerned himself any longer about goods or houses, but all the survivors, standing where they thought they were safe, gazed upon what appeared to be a number of scattered islands on fire or many cities all burning at the same time. 3 There was no longer any grieving over personal losses, but they lamented the public calamity, recalling how once before most of the city had been thus laid waste by the Gauls. 18 1 While the whole population was in this state of mind and many, crazed by the disaster, were leaping into the very flames, Nero ascended to the roof of the palace, from which there was the best general view of the greater part of the conflagration, and assuming the lyre-player's garb, he sang the "Capture of Troy," as he styled the song himself, though to the enemies of the spectators it was the Capture of Rome.

    2 The calamity which the city then experienced has no parallel before or since, except in the Gallic invasion. The whole Palatine hill, the theatre of Taurus, and nearly two-thirds of the remainder of the city were burned, and countless persons perished.
    Tacitus: (He is uncertain if it was accidental or if Nero caused it)

    [15.38] A disaster followed, whether accidental or treacherously contrived by the emperor, is uncertain, as authors have given both accounts, worse, however, and more dreadful than any which have ever happened to this city by the violence of fire. It had its beginning in that part of the circus which adjoins the Palatine and Caelian hills, where, amid the shops containing inflammable wares, the conflagration both broke out and instantly became so fierce and so rapid from the wind that it seized in its grasp the entire length of the circus. For here there were no houses fenced in by solid masonry, or temples surrounded by walls, or any other obstacle to interpose delay. The blaze in its fury ran first through the level portions of the city, then rising to the hills, while it again devastated every place below them, it outstripped all preventive measures; so rapid was the mischief and so completely at its mercy the city, with those narrow winding passages and irregular streets, which characterised old Rome. Added to this were the wailings of terror-stricken women, the feebleness of age, the helpless inexperience of childhood, the crowds who sought to save themselves or others, dragging out the infirm or waiting for them, and by their hurry in the one case, by their delay in the other, aggravating the confusion. Often, while they looked behind them, they were intercepted by flames on their side or in their face. Or if they reached a refuge close at hand, when this too was seized by the fire, they found that, even places, which they had imagined to be remote, were involved in the same calamity. At last, doubting what they should avoid or whither betake themselves, they crowded the streets or flung themselves down in the fields, while some who had lost their all, even their very daily bread, and others out of love for their kinsfolk, whom they had been unable to rescue, perished, though escape was open to them. And no one dared to stop the mischief, because of incessant menaces from a number of persons who forbade the extinguishing of the flames, because again others openly hurled brands, and kept shouting that there was one who gave them authority, either seeking to plunder more freely, or obeying orders.
    Suetonius:
    But he showed no greater mercy to the people or the walls of his capital. When someone in a general conversation said:
    "When I am dead, be earth consumed by fire,"
    he rejoined "Nay, rather while I live," and his action was wholly in accord. For under cover of displeasure at the ugliness of the old buildings and the narrow, crooked streets, he set fire to the city119 so openly that several ex-consuls did not venture to lay hands on his chamberlains although they caught them on their estates with tow and fire-brands, while some granaries near the Golden House, whose room he particularly desired, were demolished by engines of war and then set on fire, because their walls were of stone. 2 For six days and seven nights destruction raged, while the people were driven for shelter to monuments and tombs. At that time, besides an immense number of dwellings,120 the houses of leaders of old were burned, still adorned with trophies of victory, and the temples of the gods vowed and dedicated by the kings and later in the Punic and Gallic wars, and whatever else interesting and noteworthy had survived from antiquity. Viewing the conflagration from the tower of Maecenas121 and exulting, as he said, in "the beauty of the flames," he sang the whole of the "Sack of Ilium,"122 in his regular stage costume. 3 Furthermore, to gain from this calamity too all the spoil and booty possible, while promising the removal of the debris and dead bodies free of cost he allowed no one to approach the ruins of his own property; and from the contributions which he not only received, but even demanded, he nearly bankrupted the provinces and exhausted the resources of individuals.

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    What Smeagol said is true; I study Ancient/Roman history and all the ancient sources we were made to study emphasise Nero's insanity, and that he did set fire to the city. Whether it was just a unilaterally unfair characterisation of Nero from the ancient authors, or whether it actually 100% happened is impossible to know, but all we can do is go off the evidence we have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Because I read this stuff and remember it, I don't have the sources in front of me all the time.
    "I read and I remember, therefore, I can write all around and f' everybody else because I don't need to prove stuff"
    Yes, I totally understand that you don't have the sources with you all the time, but, if you don't, what you MUST say is something like this instead "well, I remember reading somewhere (or in "Z" book) that ..." but what you always do instead is to go around affirming stuff like it was 100% sure (for example: like in that post about what supposedly A.H. said about Franco after they had a talk, you wrote like you were there yourself in that day without putting any source...), that is dishonest, and even if you play the fool now, you know very well that my critique here is just.

    __
    Lets go to your quotes...

    first of all,
    Nero:
    Born: December 15, 37 AD, Anzio, Italy
    Died: June 9, 68 AD


    "The Great Fire of Rome was an urban fire that occurred in July of 64 AD"



    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    But here, Cassius Dio:
    Cassius Dio
    Born: 155 AD, Nicaea
    Died: 235 AD, Bithynia, Turkey

    So, we have a "very reliable" dude right here that was born after Nero was long gone... for sure he knew what happened that day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Tacitus: (He is uncertain if it was accidental or if Nero caused it)
    Tacitus
    Born: 56 AD, Gallia Narbonensis
    Died: 120 AD, Roman Empire
    Tacitus was 8 years old when the fire happened... at least you recognise yourself that he was uncertain about Nero's culpability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Suetonius:
    Suetonius
    Born: 69 AD
    Died: 126 AD
    , Italy

    Again, Suetonius born after that fire even happened.

    Well, so far, you've posted 3 sources, 2 of them were NOT EVEN BORN when that incident happened, the ONLY ONE you quoted that was alive, as a young boy, when that happened said that "A disaster followed, whether accidental or treacherously contrived by the emperor, is uncertain,"
    ... so, should I wait for other source? Since you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol
    3 of the four main ancient sources on Nero say he definitely started the fire
    only 2 you pointed said something "definitely" without being even born by the time of that incident (wow, very reliable : ) ).


    Tell me, Smeagol boy, why you didn't point out this interesting part that Tacitus wrote:

    Nero at this time was at Antium, and did not return to Rome until the fire approached his house, which he had built to connect the palace with the gardens of Mćcenas. It could not however be stopped from devouring the palace, the house, and everything around it. However, to relieve the people, driven out homeless as they were, he threw open to them the Campus Martius and the public buildings of Agrippa, and even his own gardens; and raised temporary structures to receive the destitute multitude. Supplies of food were brought up from Ostia and the neighboring towns, and the price of corn was reduced to three sesterces a peck. These acts, though popular, produced no effect; since a rumour had gone forth everywhere that, at the very time when the city was in flames, the Emperor appeared on a private stage and sang of the destruction of Troy, comparing present misfortunes with the calamities of antiquity.
    ?

    "Christians may have regarded the fire as the beginning of the Last Judgement, which they were expecting imminently, and may therefore have avoided interfering with its progress, and joined those who menaced the firemen, as Tacitus describes"


    "Why did Nero blame the Christians? The answer may be that they were living near the place where the fire started: the eastern part of the Circus Maximus. It should be noted that the first Roman Christians were Jews and probably lived with the other Jews. One of the Jewish quarters in Rome was just east of the Circus, near the Capena Gate. It is described by the Roman author Juvenal as a slum area.
    So, there were Jews living near the place where the fire started, and there was another reason to suspect the people near the Capena Gate: their part of the city was not destroyed by the fire. But Nero could never punish the Jews of Rome: there were thousands of them. The Christians, on the other hand, were an easy target."
    Moreover, there may have been some element of distorted truth in the accusation, because the Christians believed that Rome would be destroyed during Christ's return. They must have responded enthusiastically when they saw "Babylon" burning, and in fact, Tacitus tells us that at least some of them pleaded guilty, i.e. admitted something that their interlocutors interpreted as a confession."

    https://www.livius.org/sources/conte...he-christians/

    Here the account of Tacitus on the cause:
    https://www.bartleby.com/library/prose/5104.html

    Let's gather the info. we have, so far (pointed by you): 2 sources that said they were certain about Nero committing the crime while they weren't even born at the time of the fire, and a source (Tacitus) that was young (but at 8 you already can remember things) that explain to us that the revolutionary Christians from those days were creating trouble around Rome and he give us a more ample scenario about what could have happened...
    So let me ask you now, why we should take YOUR word into it ("it was Nero duuude, historians say that they saw it!")? No, Smeagol boy, you're dishonest about Rome, and it's not from today.
    Only shallow people thinks they understand history picking random facts. about it, without even bothering to analyse the nuances and really dig into what happened.
    Today's lesson children:

    ___

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayetooey View Post
    What Smeagol said is true; I study Ancient/Roman history and all the ancient sources we were made to study emphasise Nero's insanity, and that he did set fire to the city. Whether it was just a unilaterally unfair characterisation of Nero from the ancient authors, or whether it actually 100% happened is impossible to know, but all we can do is go off the evidence we have.
    What do you mean "is true"? I was aware way before this day that there was written things about things happened like Hollywood regurgitates... that, however, doesn't give any truth background to what happened... if you will, read my answer above towards the other user.

    ____

    "hey m'dudez, it was most likely Nero because there are words written about that... Nero was insane! LOLZ!"



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    Btw, I don't know which mod moved the posts creating a new thread about it... but thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazio View Post
    "I read and I remember, therefore, I can write all around and f' everybody else because I don't need to prove stuff"
    Yes, I totally understand that you don't have the sources with you all the time, but, if you don't, what you MUST say is something like this instead "well, I remember reading somewhere (or in "Z" book) that ..." but what you always do instead is to go around affirming stuff like it was 100% sure (for example: like in that post about what supposedly A.H. said about Franco after they had a talk, you wrote like you were there yourself in that day without putting any source...), that is dishonest, and even if you play the fool now, you know very well that my critique here is just.
    If someone disagrees with what I write they can contest it, ask me for sources, and I'll name them if I remember them. But okay, fair point, when I'm making a claim from now on, I'll try to mention where I got it from. Of course, most history books aren't just available online to post large extracts from like the works of ancient Greek and Roman historians are.

    Well, so far, you've posted 3 sources, 2 of them were NOT EVEN BORN when that incident happened,
    You realize they had access to numerous contemporary accounts that no longer exist right? Suetonius even had access to the Imperial archives. Works from historians who were Nero's contemporaries (besides Tacitus if you want to call him a contemporary who was a kid during his reign) simply don't exist anymore, but these later historians I've cited would have read their works and used them as sources for their own work, which is why these 3 (Tacitus, Suetonius, Dio) are seen by modern historians as the main primary sources on the lives of early Roman Emperors.

    ... so, should I wait for other source? Since you said:
    I was talking about Pliny the Elder whose history doesn't survive but who witnessed the fire firsthand and briefly mentions it in his Natural History where he calls it "Nero's conflagration."

    ... and they lasted – since we have already also spoken of the limits of longevity in trees – down to the Emperor Nero’s conflagration, thanks to careful tendance still verdant and vigorous, had not the emperor mentioned hastened the death even of trees.


    Tell me, Smeagol boy, why you didn't point out this interesting part that Tacitus wrote
    Because it doesn't contradict what I've said. Yes, Tacitus says it's a rumor and he's not sure of it's accuracy. I acknowledged that. You already mentioned earlier that Tacitus said that Nero helped people affected by the fire as well. I didn't dispute that. It doesn't mean he didn't start it. Tacitus make it clear he didn't want to be blamed for the fire which is why he put the blame on the Christians. Since you seem to be so interested in defending Nero though, are you willing to accept the rest of Tacitus's account of his reign? It's very negative overall and still depicts him as an insane tyrant.

    "Christians may have regarded the fire as the beginning of the Last Judgement, which they were expecting imminently, and may therefore have avoided interfering with its progress, and joined those who menaced the firemen, as Tacitus describes"
    Even if this is true, it doesn't contradict anything I said.

    there was another reason to suspect the people near the Capena Gate: their part of the city was not destroyed by the fire.

    Moreover, there may have been some element of distorted truth in the accusation, because the Christians believed that Rome would be destroyed during Christ's return. They must have responded enthusiastically when they saw "Babylon" burning, and in fact, Tacitus tells us that at least some of them pleaded guilty, i.e. admitted something that their interlocutors interpreted as a confession."
    So… What? You think the Christians burned Rome? Yeah, Nero got a few Christians to plead guilty (probably under torture) and then… an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished; or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired.

    Let's gather the info. we have, so far (pointed by you): 2 sources that said they were certain about Nero committing the crime while they weren't even born at the time of the fire,
    But had access to older sources that no longer exist.

    and a source (Tacitus) that was young (but at 8 you already can remember things) that explain to us that the revolutionary Christians from those days were creating trouble around Rome and he give us a more ample scenario about what could have happened…
    What trouble did he say they were causing at the time that didn't have to do with the fire itself? According to your quotes Tacitus thought that based on their beliefs they may have avoided interfering with the fire's progress, and joined those who menaced the firemen and must have responded enthusiastically when they saw "Babylon" burning. which even if true (we have no contemporary Christian perspective on this) doesn't imply guilt.

    Tacitus was anti-Christian like any good Roman at the time and thus his account may be suspect in parts, but even he admits that while Nero was torturing and killing Christians:
    there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

    So let me ask you now, why we should take YOUR word into it ("it was Nero duuude, historians say that they saw it!")? No, Smeagol boy, you're dishonest about Rome, and it's not from today.
    Because I'm not telling anyone to take my word, I'm posting the words of Roman historians. And I'm not even saying that it's definitely true beyond a doubt that Nero burned Rome because it's impossible to know for sure. But you're the one being dishonest by implying the opposite that "Nero definitely did not burn Rome" is settled fact when most ancient historians disagree with that and it's still something debated by modern historians today.
    Last edited by Smeagol; 08-01-2019 at 09:12 PM.

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