Gaulish appreciation thread

[RenaRyuguu]

You can't use something like 23&Me or Ancestry to assess ancient populations. All these companies use populations today to match you against. Irish for example will get nearly 100% British & Irish because the panel for British & Irish is using Irish for that category so naturally any Irish person is going to match a panel made up of other Irish people. You need ancient genomes to match against not modern population panels. If they have a North French category on 23&Me Northern French would get nearly 100% but there is no Northern French category instead they have a very large category called French & German which means no population will get 100% for that because it covers too many populations. These companies aren't looking at ancient ancestry.

There is a study coming out next year which should have some Gauls. Then we can get a look at what Gauls looked like before Roman occupation. France has had a lot of other input since the time of the Gauls and the study next year is going to look at genomes from different periods in France's history and compare them against the French today. This is the only way you can see if the present day French have changed since the time of the Gauls.

Exactly

[TheOldNorth]

You can't use something like 23&Me or Ancestry to assess ancient populations. All these companies use populations today to match you against. Irish for example will get nearly 100% British & Irish because the panel for British & Irish is using Irish for that category so naturally any Irish person is going to match a panel made up of other Irish people. You need ancient genomes to match against not modern population panels. If they have a North French category on 23&Me Northern French would get nearly 100% but there is no Northern French category instead they have a very large category called French & German which means no population will get 100% for that because it covers too many populations. These companies aren't looking at ancient ancestry.

There is a study coming out next year which should have some Gauls. Then we can get a look at what Gauls looked like before Roman occupation. France has had a lot of other input since the time of the Gauls and the study next year is going to look at genomes from different periods in France's history and compare them against the French today. This is the only way you can see if the present day French have changed since the time of the Gauls.

I understand true concept of what you’re saying but just look at my other response with all the maps, they line up pretty well with ancient populations, I don’t think the company chose populations for their service but rather used an algorithm to find actual genetic clusters and make the best names that they could for them, that’s why British and Irish or French and German aren’t separate, I mean if they where going by how you where thinking then surely Greece wouldn’t be in the same category as Romania, and surely Serbia would be closer to Russia then Greece... but no, the populations match up pretty damn well to actual genetic clusters

[Grace O'Malley]

I understand true concept of what you’re saying but just look at my other response with all the maps, they line up pretty well with ancient populations, I don’t think the company chose populations for their service but rather used an algorithm to find actual genetic clusters and make the best names that they could for them, that’s why British and Irish or French and German aren’t separate, I mean if they where going by how you where thinking then surely Greece wouldn’t be in the same category as Romania, and surely Serbia would be closer to Russia then Greece... but no, the populations match up pretty damn well to actual genetic clusters

They don't really. If you look at Ancestry's latest plot look at Ireland & Scotland? They aren't even a separate cluster but Irish on that get 100% Ireland & Scotland yet someone from France will get a very varied AC. Why is that when you look at the clusters? Can you give a plausible explanation? A Northern French person will get a reasonable percentage of Ireland & Scotland or England, Wales and Northwestern Europe, along with Germanic Europe and Iberian. Why do you think that happens?

[TheOldNorth]

They don't really. If you look at Ancestry's latest plot look at Ireland & Scotland? They aren't even a separate cluster but Irish on that get 100% Ireland & Scotland yet someone from France will get a very varied AC. Why is that when you look at the clusters? Can you give a plausible explanation? A Northern French person will get a reasonable percentage of Ireland & Scotland or England, Wales and Northwestern Europe, along with Germanic Europe and Iberian. Why do you think that happens?

thats actually completely reasonable, the iberian is obviously from roman settlers in big cities, the british and irish is from celtic migrations and trade back and forth in the iron age, and germanic is from frankish. The french are an innately mixed people, which is why I see the gaulish people as being somewhat dead, not just culturally and linguistically, but also genetically (at least if where only counting near purity) but the french and German cluster clearly represents alpine and Rhine celts, as the highest percents of the category aren't even in France or Germany, but rather Belgium and Switzerland, places of ancient Eburones and Helvetii settlement, and I believe it represnts this population.
Where is british and irish most pure? just where you said, in Ireland, the celtic nation with the least external admixture of the 6. British and Irish, and French and German are two sides of the same coin, B&I is bronze age atlantic based celts, and F&G is urnfield based celts, broadly northwest european is western germanic as it is most frequent in Frisia and East Anglia, and Scandinavian is pretty fitting as it is most common along the southern Norwegian-Swedish border.

[Grace O'Malley]

There is actually a Gaul from South Gaul R1b-U152 - kit number LR7149284 from an ancient site in Catalonia Empúries. He is identified as I8206.

This is K13

Admix Results (sorted):



# Population Percent

1 North_Atlantic 46.43

2 Baltic 22.51

3 West_Med 14.80

4 West_Asian 5.46

5 South_Asian 4.55

6 East_Med 3.01

7 Oceanian 1.41

8 Siberian 1.01





Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.

13 components mode.



--------------------------------



Least-squares method.



Using 1 population approximation:

1 Southeast_English @ 6.147450

2 South_Dutch @ 6.353458

3 Orcadian @ 6.883861

4 Southwest_English @ 6.919794

5 West_German @ 7.671120

6 Danish @ 7.697048

7 Irish @ 7.818008

8 North_German @ 7.850977

9 North_Dutch @ 8.019125

10 West_Scottish @ 8.303680

11 Norwegian @ 10.266477

12 Swedish @ 11.301386

13 French @ 11.761386

14 Austrian @ 13.757041

15 East_German @ 14.212759

16 North_Swedish @ 16.688448

17 Hungarian @ 19.009394

18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 19.519650

19 Southwest_French @ 20.469738

20 Spanish_Galicia @ 20.646685



Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% Orcadian +50% South_Dutch @ 4.725657





Using 3 populations approximation:

1 50% Irish +25% North_Swedish +25% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.481828





Using 4 populations approximation:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++

1 Danish + Irish + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 4.464623

2 Irish + Irish + North_Swedish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.481828

3 Danish + Danish + Irish + Spanish_Galicia @ 4.500876

4 Danish + Danish + North_German + Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.506655

5 Danish + Danish + North_German + Southwest_French @ 4.509534

6 Danish + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.510018

7 Danish + Irish + North_German + Spanish_Galicia @ 4.526435

8 Irish + North_Swedish + Spanish_Andalucia + West_Scottish @ 4.534358

9 Irish + North_German + Spanish_Cantabria + Swedish @ 4.541777

10 Danish + Danish + Danish + Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.542243

11 Irish + Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 4.546379

12 Danish + Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 4.547491

13 Irish + Irish + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 4.548131

14 Danish + Irish + Spanish_Andalucia + Swedish @ 4.549020

15 Danish + Danish + Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia @ 4.555769

16 Danish + Danish + Spanish_Cantabria + Swedish @ 4.563088

17 Danish + Danish + Danish + Spanish_Galicia @ 4.565170

18 Irish + North_German + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 4.568487

19 Irish + Spanish_Andalucia + Swedish + Swedish @ 4.571552

20 North_German + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 4.573954

K15

Admix Results (sorted):



#PopulationPercent

1North_Sea36.88

2Atlantic22.88

3WestMed11.55

4Baltic10.42

5EasternEuro7.77

6SouthAsian4.66

7WestAsian2.82

8Oceanian1.21



Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.

15 components mode.



--------------------------------



Least-squares method.



Using 1 population approximation:

1 Southwest_English @ 7.774968

2 West_German @ 7.877394

3 North_Dutch @ 8.251736

4 Norwegian @ 8.604799

5 Southeast_English @ 8.950067

6 Orcadian @ 8.961350

7 Danish @ 9.022582

8 West_Norwegian @ 9.848397

9 Swedish @ 10.035282

10 West_Scottish @ 10.084033

11 Irish @ 10.106870

12 South_Dutch @ 10.129710

13 North_German @ 10.193609

14 North_Swedish @ 13.023393

15 French @ 13.041930

16 East_German @ 15.009398

17 Southwest_Finnish @ 19.035538

18 Hungarian @ 19.569895

19 Spanish_Galicia @ 20.705164

20 Austrian @ 20.850138



Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% Orcadian +50% West_German @ 6.111088





Using 3 populations approximation:

1 50% Norwegian +25% Orcadian +25% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.482353





Using 4 populations approximation:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1 Norwegian + Norwegian + Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia @ 5.482353

2 Norwegian + Norwegian + Spanish_Galicia + West_Norwegian @ 5.496354

3 Norwegian + Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia + West_Norwegian @ 5.545315

4 Norwegian + Spanish_Galicia + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.550202

5 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Spanish_Galicia @ 5.556173

6 Norwegian + Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 5.566538

7 Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.592981

8 Norwegian + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.699320

9 Spanish_Galicia + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.715745

10 Spanish_Galicia + Swedish + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.716742

11 Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.718727

12 Orcadian + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.737517

13 Norwegian + Norwegian + Portuguese + West_Norwegian @ 5.769993

14 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Spanish_Galicia + West_Norwegian @ 5.786886

15 Norwegian + Norwegian + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 5.791617

16 Norwegian + Portuguese + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.800000

17 Norwegian + Orcadian + West_German + West_German @ 5.817363

18 North_Dutch + Spanish_Galicia + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.838824

19 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + Spanish_Galicia @ 5.843362

20 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Portuguese @ 5.848619

They are also on the G25



They come out as very English like. This is only one sample though and it will be interesting to see if the Gauls were varied.

[Grace O'Malley]

thats actually completely reasonable, the iberian is obviously from roman settlers in big cities, the british and irish is from celtic migrations and trade back and forth in the iron age, and germanic is from frankish. The french are an innately mixed people, which is why I see the gaulish people as being somewhat dead, not just culturally and linguistically, but also genetically (at least if where only counting near purity) but the french and German cluster clearly represents alpine and Rhine celts, as the highest percents of the category aren't even in France or Germany, but rather Belgium and Switzerland, places of ancient Eburones and Helvetii settlement, and I believe it represnts this population.
Where is british and irish most pure? just where you said, in Ireland, the celtic nation with the least external admixture of the 6. British and Irish, and French and German are two sides of the same coin, B&I is bronze age atlantic based celts, and F&G is urnfield based celts, broadly northwest european is western germanic as it is most frequent in Frisia and East Anglia, and Scandinavian is pretty fitting as it is most common along the southern Norwegian-Swedish border.

It is just because they don't have a Northern French category. If you look at these Ancestry breakdowns many Scandinavians, French, Dutch etc get Ireland & Scotland in their Ancestry Composition. Yet these are based on modern populations it is not because they are looking at ancient Celtic migrations or Vikings etc. It is because Northern French have to fit into a category with many other groups like Germans, Dutch, Danes, English etc. Whereas the Ireland & Scotland category is basically just Irish and Scottish. You have to understand how these things work.

If you break down Irish admixture like the Irish DNA Atlas they come out as basically Northern French like, with Norwegian (mainly) but also smaller amounts of German, Danish, Belgian, Spanish & Swedish. But that is part of what makes up an Irish person today so any ancient traces should be part of what an ethnicity is today. The reason why some populations like South East English get such a varied result is because they have to fit into more broad categories. It is why when they update their databases and incorporate more categories that people's results change. They can change quite drastically as well.

[TheOldNorth]

It is just because they don't have a Northern French category. If you look at these Ancestry breakdowns many Scandinavians, French, Dutch etc get Ireland & Scotland in their Ancestry Composition. Yet these are based on modern populations it is not because they are looking at ancient Celtic migrations or Vikings etc. It is because Northern French have to fit into a category with many other groups like Germans, Dutch, Danes, English etc. Whereas the Ireland & Scotland category is basically just Irish and Scottish. You have to understand how these things work.

If you break down Irish admixture like the Irish DNA Atlas they come out as basically Northern French like, with Norwegian (mainly) but also smaller amounts of German, Danish, Belgian, Spanish & Swedish. But that is part of what makes up an Irish person today so any ancient traces should be part of what an ethnicity is today. The reason why some populations like South East English get such a varied result is because they have to fit into more broad categories. It is why when they update their databases and incorporate more categories that people's results change. They can change quite drastically as well.

but thats the thing, the british and irish is iron age celtic, thats why english people get only somewhere from 40-70% british and irish, and irish get 100%, Iberian is pre indo-european iberian, which is why basque are ~100% iberian and spanish around ~50-70% and italian is italic, which is why all the countries previously within the roman empire have ~1-5% italian admixture, and ones outside of it don't have any, and why german speaking italy is less in the italian admixture.
It lines up pretty well, I'd actually say those calculators you showed above are forcing populations into little modern population boxes more then 23&me, as the Irish clearly aren't norwegian or german or french, but the vagueness of the 23&me populations means they represent older populations that break modern ethnic and linguistic lines, which is why south slavs, vlachs, and greeks get balkans, which is why Frenchmen, Belgians, dutch, Luxembourgian, Swiss, German, and Austrian people get french and German

[Grace O'Malley]

but thats the thing, the british and irish is iron age celtic, thats why english people get only somewhere from 40-70% british and irish, and irish get 100%, Iberian is pre indo-european iberian, which is why basque are ~100% iberian and spanish around ~50-70% and italian is italic, which is why all the countries previously within the roman empire have ~1-5% italian admixture, and ones outside of it don't have any, and why german speaking italy is less in the italian admixture.
It lines up pretty well, I'd actually say those calculators you showed above are forcing populations into little modern population boxes more then 23&me, as the Irish clearly aren't norwegian or german or french, but the vagueness of the 23&me populations means they represent older populations that break modern ethnic and linguistic lines, which is why south slavs, vlachs, and greeks get balkans, which is why Frenchmen, Belgians, dutch, Luxembourgian, Swiss, German, and Austrian people get french and German

Irish didn't spring up from an island but all would have come from Europe. Irish are majority Bronze Age Bell Beaker but there has been Normans, Vikings, and other British populations in the mix. No population will be 100% of anything if you look at admixture. The Basque are not pre-Indo-European Iberian they also have Beaker admix which is why they have a lot of R1b. They are however more distinctive than people like the Irish which is why they form their own cluster. The Finns also form their own cluster so they are relatively distinctive. If you match Irish against a panel with Irish people what do you think will be the result? Northern French aren't even the same as Southern French so how do you think they will get 100% when they are matched against all of France, Germans, Dutch, British etc. There is no category that is just Northern French. It's quite basic. Ancestry, 23&Me are matching people against modern day samples.

If you look at clusters you can see what populations are more distinctive. It is why people's Ancestry Compositions CHANGE when they add new samples.

Why do you think studies like the People of the British Isles removed Irish as samples? They did that because it masked admixture from the continent. As I've tried to explain if you matched Cornish with a Cornish panel they would end up with nearly 100% match.

If you understand that they are matching against a modern day population panel then whatever populations make up the present day population will be included in that breakdown. The reason why some populations get a lot of admixture is because they don't match the panel. It is that basic.

To find out ancient admixture you need to use ancient genomes.

[coolfrenchguy]

hey Mrs grace o'malley and mr theoldnorth,did you heard about the french paleoanthropologist, yves coppens,is one of the best ,he had co-discovered LUCY, i'am pretty sure than you could find ,books ,video documents if you want going very far https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_Coppens, i have watch and heard at tv years ago some tv docs and he was fucking interresting,but going very far in the proto period is quite hard without solid sources,maybe if you really want to know more you could try to contact the CNRS section paleotolongy or an equivalent like the Royal academy of science or Academia Europea

he stand on a theory than (thanks wiki) there is another branch homo heidelbergensis in the prehistoric europe,who is not relinked to africa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_heidelbergensisbut your topic is post-neandertalian more near of us meaning that's it's allready homo-sapiens with differents culture and langages around -1200 BC and -800 but damn i need a strip or a little history class :

Protohistory: despite a possible initial settlement in the Paleolithic, the Alpine people of the Ligures (or Lygians) would have constituted the first real population of the future Gaulish territory located on the Right Bank of the Rhône (current Beaujolais-Lyonnais-Forez) during the second millennium BC (Flint cut Flint discovered by the Recret at the border of Vaugneray and Grézieux-La-Varenne. Traces of a prehistoric oppidum between the Col de Malval and Yzeron). The Celts, a people from the steppes of Central Asia, which entered Gaul around the end of the bronze Age, occupied this region. The oldest traces of their presence in the monts du Lyonnais are said to have been found on Mont Pothu (818 m - Brullioles), a strategic point overlooking the Valley of the Cosne up to the Brévenne and considered by oral tradition as a place of druidic worship (stone-altar of basaltic rocks). The first Iron Age spread in Gaul around - 800 marked by the progressive spread of the Hallstatt culture whose original home (-1300) was located in today's Salzkammergut (region of Salzburg) in Austria. The Celtic tribes of Gaul gradually organized themselves into confederations with a certain reluctance in the face of excessive centralization of power. 54 peoples or communities will thus be recorded in Celtic Gaul. We will have to deal with the territory located between Rhône and Loire that can be called Ségusie, and where the dividing line of waters between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean is inscribed, to the tribe or people of Ségusiaves( or Ségusiens according to some writings) that will reveal its great mastery of the art of metals, Forestry, ceramics, weaving and commerce.

753 BC: foundation of Rome.

Around 600 BC: foundation of Massalia (Marseilles) by Greek colonists from Phocaea (present-day Turkey) which allows the spread of writing in the Celtic Gaul close to the communication axes, in particular fluvial.

Around 500 BC: Celtic Expansion throughout Gaul and in northern Italy. Migration across the Channel. The Allobroge tribe, originally from present-day Hungary, established itself in Vienna, from where it traded with Massalia via the Rhone, managing to control a vast territory stretching from the Geneva plain and from the "land of the fir trees" (Sapaudia, present-day Savoy) to mount Pilat.

About 400 BC: second Iron Age characterized by the diffusion of the culture known as the "Tène" from a focus appeared around-450 and located in the current Swiss district of Neuchâtel. Great migrations of the Celtic peoples towards eastern Europe and the Mediterranean.

390 B. C.: victory of the Gaulish Celts (people of Sens from Sens, Yonne) led by Brennus against the Etruscan armies in Clusium (today Chiusi in Tuscany, Province of Siena).

387 BC: victory of the Senones against the Roman legions at Allia, on the Italian peninsula. Sac de Rome: this is the episode of the "geese of the Capitol" and the famous Vae Victis ("Woe to the vanquished").

335 BC: appearance of the first Gaulish coins. A Gaulish embassy was received by Alexander The Great.

295 BC: the Celts of Gaul were defeated by the Romans at Sentinum (today Sassoferrato in Italy, in the province of Marche ).

279 BC: the Celts of Gaul, led by another Brennus, invaded Macedonia and Thessaly, forced the passage of Thermopylae and stopped in front of the Greek sanctuary of Delphi, which nevertheless escaped the invasion : this was the "Great Expedition" comprising three military campaigns.

170 BC: foundation of the main oppidum ségusiave in the place called "Le palais" near the current Essalois Castle in Chambles (Loire) and, during the 2nd century BC, of two oppida in Crest Chatelard (current commune of St Marcel de Félines) and in Joeuvres (St Maurice sur Loire), to control the access of the gorges of the Loire. Settlement Centre also on the future site of Rodumna (current Roanne).

125 BC: the first intervention of the Romans in transalpine Gaul at the call of the inhabitants of Massalia who were threatened on their eastern border by the Celtic Confederation of the Salyans coming from a territory located between Var and Rhône (Capital Entremont, now Aix-en-Provence) and Allied of the Allobroges. The Roman Legion will triumph over the two Celtic tribes.

121 BC: the Gaulish Celtic people of the Eduens, occupying a territory located between Loire and Saône in the north of Ségusie (today's Nivernais and Burgundy). Capital: the fortified oppidum of Bibracte on Mount Beuvray, at the confluence of the Yonne, Seine and Loire basins, crushes with the help of Rome the Allobroges (Savoie and Isère) and the Arvernes (Limagne) at the confluence of the Rhône and Isère Rivers. This people of the Eduens composes along with other peoples, including our Rhoedano-ligerian Séguiaves, a form of Confederation of the eduenne.

59 B. C.: The Roman General Julius Caesar was elected consul before being appointed proconsul of Gaul for five years, territory from which he then began the conquest after having defeated the Helvetians at Bibracte during their attempt of war migration west of the Arar (Saône).

i hope than these dates could gave you more the period that you want surrounded

[coolfrenchguy]

but thats the thing, the british and irish is iron age celtic, thats why english people get only somewhere from 40-70% british and irish, and irish get 100%, Iberian is pre indo-european iberian, which is why basque are ~100% iberian and spanish around ~50-70% and italian is italic, which is why all the countries previously within the roman empire have ~1-5% italian admixture, and ones outside of it don't have any, and why german speaking italy is less in the italian admixture.
It lines up pretty well, I'd actually say those calculators you showed above are forcing populations into little modern population boxes more then 23&me, as the Irish clearly aren't norwegian or german or french, but the vagueness of the 23&me populations means they represent older populations that break modern ethnic and linguistic lines, which is why south slavs, vlachs, and greeks get balkans, which is why Frenchmen, Belgians, dutch, Luxembourgian, Swiss, German, and Austrian people get french and German

without forgotten the picts and the angles

but don't forget to focus before the roman empire when you want to talk about the proto-celts,yes because with julius and co it was been the big kumbaya with the pre-islamic oriental tribes,the same with alexander the great(the movie is quite fucking boring) they brings a lot of women "of not from home" same big kumbaya with far eastern tribes(babylon,gilgamesh and tutti quanti) so if you want isolate the proto-celts you need to back before the big kumbayas not far just at the limit it could be 50 years,at this time life was very shorter and the campaigns very long too,but the romans and there skirties stopped at the rhin river they were not so stupid they knows than the big germanic tribes were certainly stronger than them,and frankly the beach panoply is not really made for the cold black forest,indeed the greeks/thracians were far way better at the battle,because everybody is wanking on the romans,pfff


"run,roman,run!"(aka one of our angry ancester) more seriously the axe is named francisque



6 AD Frank warrior (french)

because we talk more or less of that

hey mr theoldnorth you stand than "I actually subscribe to the opposing theory that the Gauls were originally Bronze Age Atlantic traders that assimilated the alpine peoples with Celtic languages while adopting their art " ok why not meaning from the west coast of france in direction of the alps grosso modo ,but could you tell me why?