Origin of E-V13

**~~Daos777~~** · 10-31-2019, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Daco Celtic

Here is what 23andMe has to say about E-V13, for what it is worth.

Origin and Migrations of Haplogroup E-M78

Your paternal line stems from the common ancestor of haplogroup E-M78, a branch of E that dates back approximately 24,000 years. The earliest carriers of the E-M78 lineage likely lived in a population that moved from eastern Africa into northeastern Africa about 14,000 years ago, during the final days of the Ice Age. From northeastern Africa, their descendants expanded to the west between the Sahara and the Mediterranean coastline, and to the east out of Africa into the Middle East, where E-M78 men remain common.

Today, men bearing this haplogroup are also common in southern Europe, including in the Balkans, Iberia, and Italy. In Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania, between 15% and 30% of men bear haplogroup E-M78. Their ancestors were likely relatively late arrivals to the region. While some branches of haplogroup E were carried into Europe nearly 8,000 years ago, recent research suggests that the major spread of E-M78 occurred in the last 5,000 years or so during the Bronze Age. Bronze Age cultures learned to smelt tin and copper to create beautiful and complex bronze items like hardier tools and weapons. They journeyed along river waterways in the Balkans and spread into east-central Europe. Today, men from Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, and Slovakia all carry E-M78 at levels of nearly 10%.

While the majority of E-M78 European males trace their recent ancestry to Turkey and the Middle East, some men carrying E-M78 from Spain, Italy and Greece trace their ancestry directly from North African populations, probably within the last 4,000 years. The ancestors of these men must have sailed across the Mediterranean Sea and settled in communities along the European coast.

Your paternal haplogroup, E-V13, traces back to a man who lived approximately 11,000 years ago.
That's nearly 440.0 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your paternal line.

Your haplogroup migrated in large numbers from the Balkans into Europe about 4,500 years ago, triggered by the beginning of the Balkan Bronze Age. During this migration, members of your haplogroup mainly followed rivers connecting the southern Balkans to northern-central Europe. Technological leaps often cause lineages to grow dramatically in numbers and in geographic range. The development of Bronze technology may have given men in your lineage a competitive advantage over other men, causing your lineage to proliferate and become widespread.

References
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17351267
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27111036
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26108492

“northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9-17.3 ky and 18.0-5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago. A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe”

In their source that they provided it literally says E-M78 migrated to Europe directly from Northern Africa ~13,000 years ago yet they say 4,000 years? Wtf am I misunderstanding something? Lol

Also where is this Levantine E-V13 ancestor? Nothing like that has been found yet the majority of European E-V13 can trace their origins to Middle East and Turkey where no ancestor to E-V13 was ever found. Interesting lol.

My arguments aren’t against you but 23 and me lol. Thanks for the post.

**Daco Celtic** · 10-31-2019, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Daos777

“northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9-17.3 ky and 18.0-5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago. A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe”

In their source that they provided it literally says E-M78 migrated to Europe directly from Northern Africa ~13,000 years ago yet they say 4,000 years? Wtf am I misunderstanding something? Lol

Also where is this Levantine E-V13 ancestor? Nothing like that has been found yet the majority of European E-V13 can trace their origins to Middle East and Turkey where no ancestor to E-V13 was ever found. Interesting lol.

My arguments aren’t against you but 23 and me lol. Thanks for the post.

No problem, that was just a cut and paste. I think the references might good to look at but one is kind of old, 2007 i think.

**Mortimer** · 10-31-2019, 04:21 AM

Balkans Bronze Age cultures. Thats what 23andme says.

**~~Daos777~~** · 12-09-2019, 08:08 PM

Well researched post by user from another forum:

“It is no fantasy whatsoever that E-V13 arrived to Europe directly from North Africa, and that it did not arrive from Levant. This is pre-history and those without archaeological knowledge are basically blind..

So..

There exists archaeological evidence for such migration, in the form of Capsian elements in Late Mesolithic site Crvena Stijena III in modern West Montenegro. What is interesting is that this particular site had direct connections to the site where L618 was found in Dalmatia. 100 % people from Crvena Stijena also participated in some form in Cardial Dalmatian Neolithic culture. Dalmatian Neolithic is known to have had some Meoslithic influence, also autosomally seen in one sample there with a bunch of blue eye mutations and WHG influence.
To quote Yugoslav archaeologist Borivoj Čović:
The culture of Mesolithic inhabitants of Crvena Stijena is firmly tied to the contemporary cultures of Northern Africa, especially to those of so-called Capsian type... The congruence in shapes of a large number of smaller tools (out of which some are highly specialized tools for fine processing of skin and bones) are of such degree that they do not leave much space to doubt, and primarily Northafrican origin not only of these forms but also of the Mesolithic population of Crvena Stijena.

Furthermore going by current genetic evidence the Dalmatian Cardial sample is negative to two SNP's at the L618 level, that in addition to their current spread might be used as evidence to suggest all of current L618, V13- samples are of European origin. For one L618 clade that already seems obvious. Second clade has Latvian-Lebanese connection but this connection is not Neolithic it is 4800 years old. So either the Lebanese is a descendant of L618 who stayed in Levant or he arrived in EBA from Europe, considering the current evidence latter is more likely.

Interestingly as I mentioned here, there was a skull cult throughout the Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic, without any doubt this pratice is something that was very important to those people. The problem is its origin is unclear. First connotation were Natufians but typologically it resembles more the Mesolithic practices found in Iron Gates culture as well as in some Croatian late Mesolithic sites. As Iberomaurusians and Capsians also showed signs of special treatment of skulls, so direct North African connotation of this cult cannot be excluded.

Additionally in Dalmatian Neolithic the burial practice of leaving the deceased, except chiefs, to be unburied and eaten by wild animals in wilderness has been compared to Maasai by a Yugoslav archaeologist.

But think of this, if E-V13 did arrive from Levant in Neolithic as part of Cardial Pottery wave, then this skull cult descends of Natufians, and because of its importance it can be postulated that the E-V13 throughout Neolithic never spoke Etruscan or some usual EEF, but rather Afroasiatic. From my perspective preferably something proto-Egyptian-like (when I was 12 I knew lot about most pyramids) and Semitic ethnogenesis is closely associated with later J1-Z2331, J2-M205 spread.

Autosomally Dalmatian Neolithic samples had small Iberomaurusian-like influence that EEF's by and large lacked. Though one can connect this to Natufians as well who were 27 % Iberomaurusian.”

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**Domias** · 12-10-2019, 03:57 PM

Interesting. But 1st E-V13 were already 'Causoid' or it is the same debate than its ancestor haplogroup E, which nobody is certain it was SSA or Eurasian in origin ?