Do you consider Jewish as Europeans?

[Creoda]

I think it's actually closer to 50/50 than 75/25.

The question is are they 50/50 from the Roman era or are they 50/50 from the Bronze Age era.

[Zroota]

Only Ashkenazi Jews.

[Longbowman]

"never really" - common, you want to say that they denied admixture, but they didn't. I know what they probably said. They probably said "Maybe here and there, but it would've been rare". That's really the most extreme statement you can hear. The girl isn't an example of how Jews view themselves or of how even she viewed herself before. She's just someone who misinterpreted a DNA test, as many people do. More Jews walk away thinking they're 100% European because Ashkenazi is in the European category. She just happened to err the other way.

I'll stick up for Smeagol here - a large number of Jews, particularly religious ones, are dismissive of the idea they have significant European blood, and quite a few will explain traits that are likely European as 'oh you know, my ancestors were raped by Cossacks, that's why I have blue eyes' semi-jokingly (without clocking that that would mean they are equally the descendants of the Cossack rapists, not that that narrative rings true). The notion they're about 40% SE European has not dawned on 99% of them (but then again, outside of anthrofora, why would they care?).

Everyone asking whether Jews identify as European is asking the wrong question. The real answer is that Jews don't think about this. Jews identify as Jews and they don't consciously associate that with either Europe or the Middle East. They're not regulars at theapricity.com. This isn't an issue for them. However, diasporic Ashkenazim certainly identify as white and at the same time associate their ancient ancestry with ancient Judeans. The main reason they don't see any conflict between the two is because they simply don't think about it. Go ahead, pull out opinion pieces written by activists, it still doesn't change the trend. I had a related conversation with a Haredi Jew recently. He thought that Jews are European in every way, including genetically. Yet, when asked if he therefore thought he entirely descended from converts, he instantly paused and for a while. The reason for this is because he never gave a shit till I brought it up. I was surprised, because I didn't expect Haredim to think this way. I thought they would've believed they were overwhelmingly Middle Eastern. It turns out that at least a certain portion of Haredim are under the impression that they simply have some extremely diluted ancestry connecting them to their ancient forefathers and the rest of it is keeping up with the commandments.

This is anecdotal. Half my family is Haredi and they identify as 'white' but they also look at Lebanese as 'white,' they don't see the contradiction. They still believe themselves to be overwhelmingly if not entirely Israelite/Judean and this is the case with most religious Jews, and many non-religious ones, too. Yes, Haredim do occasionally surprise you with diverse perspectives on topics that aren't 'official party line' items, but I have a lot more contact with them than you ever will, m80.

[Universe]

It depends on how they identify

[Pine]

I'll stick up for Smeagol here - a large number of Jews, particularly religious ones, are dismissive of the idea they have significant European blood, and quite a few will explain traits that are likely European as 'oh you know, my ancestors were raped by Cossacks, that's why I have blue eyes' semi-jokingly (without clocking that that would mean they are equally the descendants of the Cossack rapists, not that that narrative rings true). The notion they're about 40% SE European has not dawned on 99% of them (but then again, outside of anthrofora, why would they care?).

People of any ethnicity generally default to the assumption that their ancient ancestry overwhelmingly matches their current identity. The real question you should've asked is not "why would they care?", but "why would they think so?". The only good reason to think so is precisely if one is familiar with genetic studies, be it by reading them or soaking up misreadings of those studies from anthroforums. Smeagol didn't claim that the vast majority of Jews do not think that their European ancestry is as high as 40%, but that they think they're pure Israelites. Here is a line that is much more common than the rape-by-Cossacks: "So and so in my family is really dark/Semitic/looks like an Arab - I must be part Sephardi". And that's not even a semi-joke. It's a serious hypothesis they have. If they attribute Middle Eastern features to non-Ashkenazi introgression, do these people really walk around thinking they have no European influence? Tell me which happens more often - shock when their DNA results come with some European %s or shock when they don't. We both know it's the latter. You never hear "What's this 2.0% South European and 0.4% East European!?", whereas "Wait, why is there like no Russian or Polish? My zeyde even lived in Poland. Shouldn't there be some?" isn't at all uncommon. I'm not cherrypicking with the following example; it's simply fresh in mind because I read it a day ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA...out_right_the/ . Even though he's not Ashkenazi, he is much closer to the norm than those who think they're like me and are a pure Judean. And one of the reasons why you hear the Cossack rape comment is because while Jews are aware they're probably not pure Judeans, they interpret such admixture through European Jewish history, which is overwhelmingly anti-Semitic.

This is anecdotal. Half my family is Haredi and they identify as 'white' but they also look at Lebanese as 'white,' they don't see the contradiction. They still believe themselves to be overwhelmingly if not entirely Israelite/Judean and this is the case with most religious Jews, and many non-religious ones, too. Yes, Haredim do occasionally surprise you with diverse perspectives on topics that aren't 'official party line' items, but I have a lot more contact with them than you ever will, m80.

I clearly framed the experience as anecdotal and didn't generalize it beyond " at least a certain portion of Haredim". You missed the point. The point is that finding even a small portion like that among Haredim hints at it being much larger among those who don't have a religious narrative to reinforce a pure Israelite identity. Also, you'll never be more shtetl than me. When I say Haredim, I mean Haredim - not Modern Orthodox or Orthodox. I used to interact with Lubavitchers on a daily basis. I've spoken to Bobovers and Breslovers plenty. My shul's attendance is roughly as follows: 20% Haredim, 40% Orthodox, 20% Modern Orthodox, 10% pure Judeans like me. I used to go daily and sit there for half a day, because all we did was just talk. The only way you had more contact is if you attended a Yeshiva and I used to spend 2 days a week at the Lubavitcher Yeshiva. Don't kid me here, Reb Yid. Now, as for their views on their ancestry and genetics, that rarely came up, as these people are skeptical of science to begin with. I used to debate evolution with a prominent Haredi involved with the Slifkin affair. However, you can take certain statements from them as proxy for how they think. They refer to one another by their old countries. It was always odd to hear things like "the Hirschmans are a Russian family". I'm less generations removed from Europe than the average Western Jew and because of this, Jews, and particularly Haredim are shocked that I don't look like the natives from my European diaspora. If they don't think Jews pick up local admixture, then why would they react this way? This is hardly anecdotal. This happens very frequently and I know that it happens to others. Another instance that comes to mind is 2 Lubavitchers telling me that my dark hair may be sign of Sephardic influence. As silly as this is, it's not something you hear from people who think that we're unadulterated desert dwellers. Those involved in Kiruv(outreach to seculars) target those with East European phenotypes, because they associate that with Jews. Do most Haredim think they're overwhelmingly of Israelite extraction? I don't disagree. Do they think they're pure? No. And regardless, Smeagol doesn't interact with the Haredi minority.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Definitely not European

European it's someone with 99/100% Ethnic origins in European continent

Jews are mainly European(genetics) with various degrees of Middle East, even if a Jew look European in phenotype, he still it's not a European

[Longbowman]

.

1) People who take DNA tests are not representative of the whole for obvious reasons
2) Mate my mum's family is Sephardi Modox (S&P), my dad's family is Haredi and Hassidic, even religiously (but not practically) anti-Zionist Hassidic. You meeting a few here and there will never be equivalent to my summers as a child and teenager.

I take the point about dark-Sephardi but it's also a reflection of an approximately 150 year trend of wanting to be Sephardi on the part of educated Ashkenazim.

[Dawnbringer]

I take the point about dark-Sephardi but it's also a reflection of an approximately 150 year trend of wanting to be Sephardi on the part of educated Ashkenazim.

I would recommend this book on the subject:



https://books.google.com/books?id=8k...ephardic&hl=de

[Longbowman]

I would recommend this book on the subject:


https://books.google.com/books?id=8k...ephardic&hl=de

Yes, it's well documented, and some extremely prominent Ashkenazim of the 19th and 20th centuries are known to have convinced themselves of Sephardic ancestors that didn't exist - either on the basis of odd names, or, as I point out, swarthiness. A good example is Herzl, who convinced himself he was 1/8 Balkan Sephardic (he wasn't). It was incredibly prevalent, particularly amongst the educated classes, and as such I and many other Sephardim and others tend to be wary of claims of distant Sephardic ancestry on the part of Ashkenazim.

We can call this Off Sephardi Disorder for jokes, but it's actually a symptom of Ashkenazi self-hatred, which is the largest and severest sub-disorder of Jewish self-hatred.

[Dawnbringer]

Yes, it's well documented, and some extremely prominent Ashkenazim of the 19th and 20th centuries are known to have convinced themselves of Sephardic ancestors that didn't exist - either on the basis of odd names, or, as I point out, swarthiness. A good example is Herzl, who convinced himself he was 1/8 Balkan Sephardic (he wasn't). It was incredibly prevalent, particularly amongst the educated classes, and as such I and many other Sephardim and others tend to be wary of claims of distant Sephardic ancestry on the part of Ashkenazim.

We can call this Off Sephardi Disorder for jokes, but it's actually a symptom of Ashkenazi self-hatred, which is the largest and severest sub-disorder of Jewish self-hatred.

In the 19th century, Sephardic Jews were seen as more elegant and noble than the common Ashkenazic Jew.

In countries like the Netherlands, England, and Romania where Sephardic Jews have maintained a presence longer than Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardim were favored as more assimilable and less subversive.

In Wallachia, the Southern and capital province of Romania Sephardic Jews were preferred over Ashkenazi Jews because they had lived there since the 16th century and Ashkenazi Jews only with the late 19th century. Wallachians saw Sephardim as Mediterranean and closer ethnically to them than the ‚barbaric’ Ashkenazim of Asiatic (as in Mongoloid) origin coming in from the Northern provinces (Moldova and Transylvania).