How would Europe be if Neolithic Farmers has Never invaded?

[XenophobicPrussian]

Southern Europeans would all look Irish/Welsh Brunns/Aurignacian Atlantids instead of what they look like now, Scandinavians may've become 80%+ blonde rather than the 30-35% it is right now(blonde hair was most prevelant among Scandinavian and Baltic HGs but still a minority, however we know Scandinavia was the place with the most massive selection for blondism, without all the foreign genes it may've been much more).

N Europeans would also have a lot lighter skin(EHGs/steppe people darkened Europe, not lightened) like pale British islanders and wouldn't have the ability to tan, freckles would also be a lot more common. Depending on whether civilization and urbanism managed to spread from higher population areas in the Middle-East without gene flow, Chinese probably wouldn't outscore Europeans in math like they do now.

[Dick]

N Europeans would also have a lot lighter skin(EHGs/steppe people darkened Europe, not lightened)

They did?

also do you think gingers were common among WHG?

[Daco Celtic]

Yes. The WHGs were probably ripped with six pack abs

Gluten was at the heart of the Neolithics' sinister plan to dominate Europe. Soon the WHG went from six pack abs to beer bellies. They had trouble getting laid. They should have known that bread was the devil.

[XenophobicPrussian]

They did?

also do you think gingers were common among WHG?

That's my theory, no solid proof though. WHGs lacking the SNPs linked to light skin in modern Europeans =/ WHGs didn't have light skin SNPs. Siberian HGs have light skin. They did almost all have IRF4 which gave them freckles and no ability to tan, which makes no sense if they had dark skin, I don't recall seeing a dark skinned person with freckles before.

Probably, IRF4 peaks in modern Ireland and so does red hair. That being said, no WHGs have been found with any of the modern related SNPs with red hair other than La Brana who only had like 2/55 derived(other than 1 Goyet Belgium paleolithic European, technically not a WHG), but given 30-40% of Irish people have the genes for red hair but only 2% have pure red hair and 11% various reddish brown/blonde and based on SNP pigmentation predictions English people should be like 75% blonde, I'm not sure how useful that information is.

[Dawnbringer]

That's my theory, no solid proof though. WHGs lacking the SNPs linked to light skin in modern Europeans =/ WHGs didn't have light skin SNPs. Siberian HGs have light skin. They did almost all have IRF4 which gave them freckles and no ability to tan, which makes no sense if they had dark skin, I don't recall seeing a dark skinned person with freckles before.

Probably, IRF4 peaks in modern Ireland and so does red hair. That being said, no WHGs have been found with any of the modern related SNPs with red hair other than La Brana who only had like 2/55 derived(other than 1 Goyet Belgium paleolithic European, technically not a WHG), but given 30-40% of Irish people have the genes for red hair but only 2% have pure red hair and 11% various reddish brown/blonde and based on SNP pigmentation predictions English people should be like 75% blonde, I'm not sure how useful that information is.

Red hair definitely did exist in Mesolithic Sweden. Of the 7 Motala Hunter-gathers analyzed, 2 carried R151C, 1 R160W, and 1 rs1110400. There was 1 inferred redhead. From what I gather this was not known in other Mesolithic Europeans. Both R151C and R160W are claimed to date from the Middle-Paleolithic West Asia according to BritiansDNA. They were found among Afanasievo samples, so they were probably also found among ANE people. Perhaps Mesolithic Swedes acquired R151C and R160W from EHG people who had ANE admixture.

Even some people who carry an MC1R variant can have Fitzpatrick IV skin.
This study found 35.5% of skin cancer Patients who had Fitzpatrick skin type IV carried at least 1 MC1R variant. With the general population of Fitzpatrick IV it’s probably a significantly lower proportion, but not zero.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275642/

Freckles and olive skin do exist. Same as a MC1R carrier can have olive skin. Generally unlikely, but certainly possible.

I don’t know if their was a study done on skin types and IRF4, but I doubt that there would no darker skinned exceptions of IRF4 carriers.

Good point about the rather uncertain relationship between allele frequencies and phenotype frequency. A study from the University of Edinburgh Fromm last year found that only 15% of people who carry two MC1R variants have red hair, with the general distribution of hair color similar to the general population. Some with somewhat reddish hair may self-report as blond or brown, but the assumption that all or even most with two variants have hair which is decidedly red is false.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07691-z

[Sacrificed Ram]

Nah dude not sure who told you this, maybe you are reading outdated info, but the mass migration of early neolithic farmers to Europe is a seminal part of European genetic history. The did indeed overturn of the majority of mesolithic DNA. This is not something any geneticist contests right now.

Probably some level of neolithic DNA was also introduced by bronze age indo-european invaders.

Technically neolithic presence in Europe is determined by E1b1b yDNA, J yDNA must be of bronze age source.

[PlattitüdenPaule]

Pretty much paradise. Sure, agriculture very much laid the foundation for civilization, but at the same time it also marked the downfall of humanity, cause it disabled natural selection and gave every retard ever the chance to reproduce.

[Dick]

Pretty much paradise. Sure, agriculture very much laid the foundation for civilization, but at the same time it also marked the downfall of humanity, cause it disabled natural selection and gave every retard ever the chance to reproduce.

Well, non-European civilizations had agriculture as well but what made Europeans excel over others is wheat. I would say that urbanization and jewish merchants in urban centers marked the downfall of the white race.

[Flashball]

We can't change what happened, so the answer is: impossible to know.

Do not forget that even a German has an good part of EEF contribution, so there is no point in doing ethno-masochism by attacking his own prehistoric ancestors who represent 30-40% of his ancestral contributions.

I never understood the interest of this kind of thread.

[Roy]

We can't change what happened, so the answer is: impossible to know.

Do not forget that even a German has an good part of EEF contribution, so there is no point in doing ethno-masochism by attacking his own prehistoric ancestors who represent 30-40% of his ancestral contributions.

I never understood the interest of this kind of thread.

It is yet another ''muh ancestors'' thread fetishising one group of ancestors.