Balts or Celts: who would be victorious?

[Creoda]

For the most part I'd agree there isn't an Atlantic cluster but I think this PCA captures one more of less. So English plot much close to Spanish than Czech on this one. Maybe it's just an outlier though.

Err no. Your map is distorted. Here it is magnified with relevant countries coloured:

[Daco Celtic]

Err no. Your map is distorted. Here it is magnified with relevant countries coloured:

Well, I suspected it my might an outlier but why do you think it would configure in that particular way? I know it might be distorted based on where I plot but there has to be some correlation to that cluster.

[Creoda]

Well, I suspected it my might an outlier but why do you think it would configure in that particular way? I know it might be distorted based on where I plot but there has to be some correlation to that cluster.

You can't see the clusters properly and they're squeezed to de-emphasise North-South (to accommodate Jews).

A PCA is only 2 dimensional anyway, it's best to look at the closest populations with all components.

English G25 average - Croatia before any Spanish region

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
                     English1              English_Cornwall
                   0.00000000                    0.06608883
                     Scottish                      Orcadian
                   0.07628636                    0.09972498
                        Irish               French_Brittany
                   0.11220337                    0.11996852
                        Dutch                 England_Roman
                   0.13017289                    0.13062919
                        Welsh                    Shetlandic
                   0.16176847                    0.18042013
                    Icelandic                    England_IA
                   0.19146258                    0.19765111
                       DEU_MA                  Scotland_LBA
                   0.20633239                    0.20867165
                       German                 England_Saxon
                   0.21088291                    0.21122135
                    Norwegian  Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
                   0.21129556                    0.23889866
                      Belgian               Bell_Beaker_CZE
                   0.24365391                    0.24624393
                  England_MBA                       Swedish
                   0.24896079                    0.26523616
          Bell_Beaker_Bavaria             Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
                   0.26565247                    0.26788874
              ITA_Collegno_MA               Bell_Beaker_POL
                   0.27603908                    0.28728429
                HUN_MA_Szolad                  Scotland_MBA
                   0.28800138                    0.30329407
            DEU_Alberstedt_LN                England_CA_EBA
                   0.31452689                    0.31467902
                 Wales_CA_EBA            Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
                   0.31548183                    0.32262982
                SVK_Poprad_MA                        IRL_BA
                   0.32897099                    0.32906592
                 England_EMBA               CZE_Unetice_EBA
                   0.33786036                    0.34084989
                  French_East           DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
                   0.34398004                    0.34486173
                 Swiss_German           Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
                   0.35056374                    0.35217589
              Scotland_CA_EBA                        French
                   0.35621234                    0.35803580
                       SWE_IA                      Austrian
                   0.36302274                    0.36535914
                  German_East     Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
                   0.37341382                    0.38669087
              DEU_Unetice_EBA           Bell_Beaker_England
                   0.39059741                    0.39296359
       SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna                        NLD_BA
                   0.39749379                    0.40777527
         Bell_Beaker_Scotland          CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
                   0.41634089                    0.41759085
              Bell_Beaker_FRA                     Nordic_BA
                   0.41865394                    0.42001062
   DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN                       CZE_EBA
                   0.43043156                    0.43323992
   Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1                   England_LBA
                   0.43548690                    0.43803230
                        Czech           USA_colonial_period
                   0.44040610                    0.44206675
              POL_Unetice_EBA               Scythian_MDA_o2
                   0.44349716                    0.45306401
                    Hungarian                     Nordic_LN
                   0.46042695                    0.46259396
              Bell_Beaker_NLD                 BGR_Varna_En3
                   0.46557722                    0.46884801
      Bell_Beaker_England_EBA         Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
                   0.50523845                    0.50761006
                 Swiss_French               Bell_Beaker_CHE
                   0.51431301                    0.51455849
                    Slovenian              HUN_MA_Szolad_o2
                   0.51811866                    0.52001582
                  Nordic_MN_B                SWE_Battle-Axe
                   0.52022227                    0.52765930
                     Croatian                  Scythian_HUN
                   0.52868864                    0.52987615
   POL_Chopice_Wesele_Culture           FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
                   0.53322454                    0.53717924
  Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES                    DEU_MA_ACD
                   0.54700609                    0.55644145
                    Slovakian          CZE_Starounetice_EBA
                   0.57743795                    0.58073311
                       HUN_MA                       HUN_LBA
                   0.58934404                    0.60000427
               CZE_Early_Slav            Spanish_Barcelones
                   0.60092768                    0.61246998
              Spanish_Penedes                       Bosnian
                   0.61339672                    0.62385322
     UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky               Iberia_North_IA
                   0.62419028                    0.62889037
    UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine                Spanish_Girona
                   0.63035574                    0.63262090
Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL     Spanish_Catalunya_Central
                   0.63314605                    0.63538784
                       Polish                   Montenegrin
                   0.63964270                    0.64231435
               Spanish_Lleida                  French_South
                   0.64251552                    0.64529604
    Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona               Corded_Ware_POL
                   0.64650626                    0.65015913

Mine - I don't even get a modern Iberian population in my top 100, but I get Ukrainian Scythian and Moldovan....

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
                     Orcadian                      Scottish
                    0.1721798                     0.1847653
                England_Roman                         Irish
                    0.1906615                     0.1967844
                 Scotland_LBA                       English
                    0.2083557                     0.2087370
             English_Cornwall                     Icelandic
                    0.2090097                     0.2218451
              French_Brittany                    Shetlandic
                    0.2233603                     0.2385523
                        Dutch                        DEU_MA
                    0.2385536                     0.2521238
                        Welsh                     Norwegian
                    0.2720062                     0.2758923
                 Wales_CA_EBA                   England_MBA
                    0.2839086                     0.2844212
                England_Saxon                       Swedish
                    0.2975949                     0.3012907
                 England_EMBA                    England_IA
                    0.3135821                     0.3200425
 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale                        German
                    0.3320007                     0.3378111
                 Scotland_MBA                England_CA_EBA
                    0.3432581                     0.3474647
            Bell_Beaker_FRA_C                        IRL_BA
                    0.3578501                     0.3580068
                       SWE_IA               Bell_Beaker_CZE
                    0.3610503                     0.3616892
         Bell_Beaker_Scotland               Bell_Beaker_POL
                    0.3692177                     0.3785433
            DEU_Alberstedt_LN                       Belgian
                    0.3831237                     0.3846818
   DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN               CZE_Unetice_EBA
                    0.3899925                     0.3945101
          Bell_Beaker_England           Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
                    0.3976172                     0.4037520
              ITA_Collegno_MA               DEU_Unetice_EBA
                    0.4047226                     0.4097811
              Scotland_CA_EBA                   German_East
                    0.4139722                     0.4150325
                SVK_Poprad_MA                 HUN_MA_Szolad
                    0.4207307                     0.4295911
          DEU_Halberstadt_LBA            Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
                    0.4343314                     0.4356554
                       NLD_BA        SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
                    0.4360749                     0.4382410
                      CZE_EBA               Bell_Beaker_NLD
                    0.4555420                     0.4611425
              POL_Unetice_EBA               Bell_Beaker_FRA
                    0.4620298                     0.4654017
                    Nordic_BA           Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
                    0.4671453                     0.4770501
                     Austrian                   French_East
                    0.4773904                     0.4780174
                       French                   England_LBA
                    0.4953688                     0.5000510
         CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany                SWE_Battle-Axe
                    0.5030965                     0.5102628
                        Czech     Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
                    0.5116708                     0.5291528
              Scythian_MDA_o2    POL_Chopice_Wesele_Culture
                    0.5381960                     0.5417397
                    Hungarian                     Nordic_LN
                    0.5435757                     0.5462337
          USA_colonial_period       Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
                    0.5518084                     0.5548498
                  Nordic_MN_B          CZE_Starounetice_EBA
                    0.5557714                     0.5587844
                BGR_Varna_En3    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
                    0.5590469                     0.5631907
          FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o              HUN_MA_Szolad_o2
                    0.5745512                     0.5852437
                    Slovenian Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
                    0.5976594                     0.6014331
        KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1                      Croatian
                    0.6131201                     0.6155476
        Iberia_Central_CA_Stp               KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
                    0.6171559                     0.6292113
       KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul                  Scythian_HUN
                    0.6303644                     0.6336496
               CZE_Early_Slav               Bell_Beaker_CHE
                    0.6396587                     0.6407084
              Corded_Ware_POL                     Slovakian
                    0.6409676                     0.6479414
                 Scythian_UKR   Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
                    0.6514164                     0.6543028
                   DEU_MA_ACD                        Polish
                    0.6598015                     0.6642647
            Corded_Ware_DEU_o            RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
                    0.6668142                     0.6750149
            RUS_Petrovka_MLBA   KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
                    0.6751582                     0.6795829
            KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA                RUS_Poltavka_o
                    0.6865316                     0.6887927
                      HUN_LBA        Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
                    0.6893921                     0.6894532
              HUN_Avar_Szolad              KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
                    0.6960072                     0.6971448
                     Moldovan               Iberia_North_IA
                    0.7036475                     0.7057880

[Daco Celtic]

You can't see the clusters properly and they're squeezed to de-emphasise North-South (to accommodate Jews).

A PCA is only 2 dimensional anyway, it's best to look at the closest populations with all components.

English G25 average - Croatia before any Spanish region

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
                     English1              English_Cornwall
                   0.00000000                    0.06608883
                     Scottish                      Orcadian
                   0.07628636                    0.09972498
                        Irish               French_Brittany
                   0.11220337                    0.11996852
                        Dutch                 England_Roman
                   0.13017289                    0.13062919
                        Welsh                    Shetlandic
                   0.16176847                    0.18042013
                    Icelandic                    England_IA
                   0.19146258                    0.19765111
                       DEU_MA                  Scotland_LBA
                   0.20633239                    0.20867165
                       German                 England_Saxon
                   0.21088291                    0.21122135
                    Norwegian  Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
                   0.21129556                    0.23889866
                      Belgian               Bell_Beaker_CZE
                   0.24365391                    0.24624393
                  England_MBA                       Swedish
                   0.24896079                    0.26523616
          Bell_Beaker_Bavaria             Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
                   0.26565247                    0.26788874
              ITA_Collegno_MA               Bell_Beaker_POL
                   0.27603908                    0.28728429
                HUN_MA_Szolad                  Scotland_MBA
                   0.28800138                    0.30329407
            DEU_Alberstedt_LN                England_CA_EBA
                   0.31452689                    0.31467902
                 Wales_CA_EBA            Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
                   0.31548183                    0.32262982
                SVK_Poprad_MA                        IRL_BA
                   0.32897099                    0.32906592
                 England_EMBA               CZE_Unetice_EBA
                   0.33786036                    0.34084989
                  French_East           DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
                   0.34398004                    0.34486173
                 Swiss_German           Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
                   0.35056374                    0.35217589
              Scotland_CA_EBA                        French
                   0.35621234                    0.35803580
                       SWE_IA                      Austrian
                   0.36302274                    0.36535914
                  German_East     Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
                   0.37341382                    0.38669087
              DEU_Unetice_EBA           Bell_Beaker_England
                   0.39059741                    0.39296359
       SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna                        NLD_BA
                   0.39749379                    0.40777527
         Bell_Beaker_Scotland          CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
                   0.41634089                    0.41759085
              Bell_Beaker_FRA                     Nordic_BA
                   0.41865394                    0.42001062
   DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN                       CZE_EBA
                   0.43043156                    0.43323992
   Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1                   England_LBA
                   0.43548690                    0.43803230
                        Czech           USA_colonial_period
                   0.44040610                    0.44206675
              POL_Unetice_EBA               Scythian_MDA_o2
                   0.44349716                    0.45306401
                    Hungarian                     Nordic_LN
                   0.46042695                    0.46259396
              Bell_Beaker_NLD                 BGR_Varna_En3
                   0.46557722                    0.46884801
      Bell_Beaker_England_EBA         Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
                   0.50523845                    0.50761006
                 Swiss_French               Bell_Beaker_CHE
                   0.51431301                    0.51455849
                    Slovenian              HUN_MA_Szolad_o2
                   0.51811866                    0.52001582
                  Nordic_MN_B                SWE_Battle-Axe
                   0.52022227                    0.52765930
                     Croatian                  Scythian_HUN
                   0.52868864                    0.52987615
   POL_Chopice_Wesele_Culture           FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
                   0.53322454                    0.53717924
  Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES                    DEU_MA_ACD
                   0.54700609                    0.55644145
                    Slovakian          CZE_Starounetice_EBA
                   0.57743795                    0.58073311
                       HUN_MA                       HUN_LBA
                   0.58934404                    0.60000427
               CZE_Early_Slav            Spanish_Barcelones
                   0.60092768                    0.61246998
              Spanish_Penedes                       Bosnian
                   0.61339672                    0.62385322
     UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky               Iberia_North_IA
                   0.62419028                    0.62889037
    UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine                Spanish_Girona
                   0.63035574                    0.63262090
Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL     Spanish_Catalunya_Central
                   0.63314605                    0.63538784
                       Polish                   Montenegrin
                   0.63964270                    0.64231435
               Spanish_Lleida                  French_South
                   0.64251552                    0.64529604
    Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona               Corded_Ware_POL
                   0.64650626                    0.65015913

Mine - I don't even get a modern Iberian population in my top 100, but I get Ukrainian Scythian and Moldovan....

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
                     Orcadian                      Scottish
                    0.1721798                     0.1847653
                England_Roman                         Irish
                    0.1906615                     0.1967844
                 Scotland_LBA                       English
                    0.2083557                     0.2087370
             English_Cornwall                     Icelandic
                    0.2090097                     0.2218451
              French_Brittany                    Shetlandic
                    0.2233603                     0.2385523
                        Dutch                        DEU_MA
                    0.2385536                     0.2521238
                        Welsh                     Norwegian
                    0.2720062                     0.2758923
                 Wales_CA_EBA                   England_MBA
                    0.2839086                     0.2844212
                England_Saxon                       Swedish
                    0.2975949                     0.3012907
                 England_EMBA                    England_IA
                    0.3135821                     0.3200425
 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale                        German
                    0.3320007                     0.3378111
                 Scotland_MBA                England_CA_EBA
                    0.3432581                     0.3474647
            Bell_Beaker_FRA_C                        IRL_BA
                    0.3578501                     0.3580068
                       SWE_IA               Bell_Beaker_CZE
                    0.3610503                     0.3616892
         Bell_Beaker_Scotland               Bell_Beaker_POL
                    0.3692177                     0.3785433
            DEU_Alberstedt_LN                       Belgian
                    0.3831237                     0.3846818
   DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN               CZE_Unetice_EBA
                    0.3899925                     0.3945101
          Bell_Beaker_England           Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
                    0.3976172                     0.4037520
              ITA_Collegno_MA               DEU_Unetice_EBA
                    0.4047226                     0.4097811
              Scotland_CA_EBA                   German_East
                    0.4139722                     0.4150325
                SVK_Poprad_MA                 HUN_MA_Szolad
                    0.4207307                     0.4295911
          DEU_Halberstadt_LBA            Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
                    0.4343314                     0.4356554
                       NLD_BA        SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
                    0.4360749                     0.4382410
                      CZE_EBA               Bell_Beaker_NLD
                    0.4555420                     0.4611425
              POL_Unetice_EBA               Bell_Beaker_FRA
                    0.4620298                     0.4654017
                    Nordic_BA           Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
                    0.4671453                     0.4770501
                     Austrian                   French_East
                    0.4773904                     0.4780174
                       French                   England_LBA
                    0.4953688                     0.5000510
         CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany                SWE_Battle-Axe
                    0.5030965                     0.5102628
                        Czech     Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
                    0.5116708                     0.5291528
              Scythian_MDA_o2    POL_Chopice_Wesele_Culture
                    0.5381960                     0.5417397
                    Hungarian                     Nordic_LN
                    0.5435757                     0.5462337
          USA_colonial_period       Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
                    0.5518084                     0.5548498
                  Nordic_MN_B          CZE_Starounetice_EBA
                    0.5557714                     0.5587844
                BGR_Varna_En3    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
                    0.5590469                     0.5631907
          FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o              HUN_MA_Szolad_o2
                    0.5745512                     0.5852437
                    Slovenian Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
                    0.5976594                     0.6014331
        KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1                      Croatian
                    0.6131201                     0.6155476
        Iberia_Central_CA_Stp               KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
                    0.6171559                     0.6292113
       KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul                  Scythian_HUN
                    0.6303644                     0.6336496
               CZE_Early_Slav               Bell_Beaker_CHE
                    0.6396587                     0.6407084
              Corded_Ware_POL                     Slovakian
                    0.6409676                     0.6479414
                 Scythian_UKR   Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
                    0.6514164                     0.6543028
                   DEU_MA_ACD                        Polish
                    0.6598015                     0.6642647
            Corded_Ware_DEU_o            RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
                    0.6668142                     0.6750149
            RUS_Petrovka_MLBA   KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
                    0.6751582                     0.6795829
            KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA                RUS_Poltavka_o
                    0.6865316                     0.6887927
                      HUN_LBA        Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
                    0.6893921                     0.6894532
              HUN_Avar_Szolad              KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
                    0.6960072                     0.6971448
                     Moldovan               Iberia_North_IA
                    0.7036475                     0.7057880

Yeah, I think the calculators trump the PCA so no disagreement. I was just wondering why that particular PCA worked out that way. You raise an interesting point about Croatia. Not to get too off topic but perhaps the most undermentioned thing on TA is the fact that southeast Europeans plot closer to England/British Isles than most fully Slavic or Iberian populations. This is especially true with Croatians.

Sample Details Fit Map English (G25)


Croatian:Average 3.9814 Open Map 100
Serbian:Average 5.4352 Open Map 100
Romanian:Average 5.4915 Open Map 100
Polish:Average 5.5399 Open Map
Spanish_Cataluna:Average 5.8648
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha:Average 6.5584
Basque_Spanish:Average 6.7793 Open Map 100
Portuguese:Average 6.8652 Open Map 100
Belarusian: Average 7.3322 Open Map 100
Russian_Smolensk:Average 7.0864
Estonian:Average 8.0437
Lithuanian:Average 8.6103

Also, Croatians and English are surprisingly similar on this chart.

[TheOldNorth]

Err no. Your map is distorted. Here it is magnified with relevant countries coloured:

as you can clearly see, the English here plot far more with the Celts then with any Germanic people, and the Hallstatt is far away from the Iberian and somewhat far from the British, I did except the Hallstatt to not be too far, but only because of their common bell-beaker origin. One thing you must consider about the Atlantic Celts theory as well, is the fact that it's not solely about genetics. do to the fact that their appears to be no pre-celtic etymologies of any sites in either Britain or Ireland, despite their being a great deal of supposedly 'pre Celtic Indo-European sites' means that it's highly unlikely that their was a major linguistic change in the islands sense the arrival of the bell-beakers.
If anything we must consider the La Tene culture to be more of an art style then a culture, that spread to Britain through trade, not invasion...
besides most phenotypical maps old and new, portray the Celtic peoples as being 'nordo-mediterranean' with some not even mentioning a Nordic aspect.
Also as a quick thought, the modern Spanish have changed genetically a great deal sense the iron age, with Roman, Gothic, and Moorish invasions, each adding their own genetic flair, and lets not forget about Greek colonist, Sephardic Jews, and native Canaries who likely brought some DNA back through mixed individuals, and the fact that the Bell beakers themselves haven't existed for 3 thousand years or more means that it's a combination of genetic drift and admixture that distanced them, but if you notice, they're the same as the British vertically, meaning that the English might not be super close to the Spanish, but the Spanish are closer to the English the most other's besides the french, creating the Atlantic continuum, which isn't obvious but still represented on that chart

[Creoda]

as you can clearly see, the English here plot far more with the Celts then with any Germanic people, and the Hallstatt is far away from the Iberian and somewhat far from the British, I did except the Hallstatt to not be too far, but only because of their common bell-beaker origin. One thing you must consider about the Atlantic Celts theory as well, is the fact that it's not solely about genetics. do to the fact that their appears to be no pre-celtic etymologies of any sites in either Britain or Ireland, despite their being a great deal of supposedly 'pre Celtic Indo-European sites' means that it's highly unlikely that their was a major linguistic change in the islands sense the arrival of the bell-beakers.
If anything we must consider the La Tene culture to be more of an art style then a culture, that spread to Britain through trade, not invasion...
besides most phenotypical maps old and new, portray the Celtic peoples as being 'nordo-mediterranean' with some not even mentioning a Nordic aspect.
Also as a quick thought, the modern Spanish have changed genetically a great deal sense the iron age, with Roman, Gothic, and Moorish invasions, each adding their own genetic flair, and lets not forget about Greek colonist, Sephardic Jews, and native Canaries who likely brought some DNA back through mixed individuals, and the fact that the Bell beakers themselves haven't existed for 3 thousand years or more means that it's a combination of genetic drift and admixture that distanced them, but if you notice, they're the same as the British vertically, meaning that the English might not be super close to the Spanish, but the Spanish are closer to the English the most other's besides the french, creating the Atlantic continuum, which isn't obvious but still represented on that chart

You don't see shit. The bulk of English overlap with the Dutch. Now you're going to tell me the Dutch are mostly Celtic and part of the Atlantic Facade.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yeah, I think the calculators trump the PCA so no disagreement. I was just wondering why that particular PCA worked out that way. You raise an interesting point about Croatia. Not to get too off topic but perhaps the most undermentioned thing on TA is the fact that southeast Europeans plot closer to England/British Isles than most fully Slavic or Iberian populations. This is especially true with Croatians.

Sample Details Fit Map English (G25)


Croatian:Average 3.9814 Open Map 100
Serbian:Average 5.4352 Open Map 100
Romanian:Average 5.4915 Open Map 100
Polish:Average 5.5399 Open Map
Spanish_Cataluna:Average 5.8648
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha:Average 6.5584
Basque_Spanish:Average 6.7793 Open Map 100
Portuguese:Average 6.8652 Open Map 100
Belarusian: Average 7.3322 Open Map 100
Russian_Smolensk:Average 7.0864
Estonian:Average 8.0437
Lithuanian:Average 8.6103

Also, Croatians and English are surprisingly similar on this chart.

The English are a bit more central to all populations compared to the Irish but these are the populations Irish are closest to.

1 Irish:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.929
3 Irish:Average English_Averaged Averaged 1.122
5 Irish:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 1.334
6 Irish:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.39
8 Irish:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.399
9 Irish:Average French_Brittany_Averaged Averaged 1.409
12 Irish:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.589
16 Irish:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.659
27 Irish:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 1.818
161 Irish:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.701
176 Irish:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.76
244 Irish:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 3.076
515 Irish:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 4.134
525 Irish:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 4.175
542 Irish:Average Swiss_German_Averaged Averaged 4.219
546 Irish:Average French_Averaged Averaged 4.24
554 Irish:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 4.262
678 Irish:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 4.777
739 Irish:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 5.113
856 Irish:Average Swiss_French_Averaged Averaged 5.75
859 Irish:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 5.785
867 Irish:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 5.816
919 Irish:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 6.095

1 English:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 0.661
2 English:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 0.763
3 English:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.997
4 English:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.122
5 English:Average French_Brittany_Averaged Averaged 1.2
6 English:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.302
12 English:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.618
21 English:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.804
32 English:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.915
55 English:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.109
57 English:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 2.113
111 English:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 2.437
157 English:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.652
348 English:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 3.44
367 English:Average Swiss_German_Averaged Averaged 3.506
395 English:Average French_Averaged Averaged 3.58
423 English:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 3.654
454 English:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 3.734
631 English:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 4.404
665 English:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 4.604
800 English:Average Swiss_French_Averaged Averaged 5.143
832 English:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 5.287
912 English:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 5.774
983 English:Average Spanish_Barcelones_Averaged Averaged 6.125
985 English:Average Spanish_Penedes_Averaged Averaged 6.134

English are closer to nearly all non British Isles populations than the Irish with the exception of the Icelanders and Norwegians as Irish are closer to them.

[TheOldNorth]

You don't see shit. The bulk of English overlap with the Dutch. Now you're going to tell me the Dutch are mostly Celtic and part of the Atlantic Facade.

if you take that genetic chart and turn it 90 degrees counterclockwise you'll see that it matches up pretty well with the geographic distribution of Europeans, then you'll see that west corresponds with western Europeans, which is a thing, because of the Atlantic common ancestry of the bell beakers, the farther east, the more Corded Ware, the farther south, the more EEF the farther north, the more steppe, it actually fits quite well.
I never said the English don't cluster north, all I said is that the 30-40% steppe ancestry they do share with iberians is closer then to that of the south Germans and north Italians, and that the English have a percentage similar to the dutch but of a partially different origin

[Grace O'Malley]

if you take that genetic chart and turn it 90 degrees counterclockwise you'll see that it matches up pretty well with the geographic distribution of Europeans, then you'll see that west corresponds with western Europeans, which is a thing, because of the Atlantic common ancestry of the bell beakers, the farther east, the more Corded Ware, the farther south, the more EEF the farther north, the more steppe, it actually fits quite well.
I never said the English don't cluster north, all I said is that the 30-40% steppe ancestry they do share with iberians is closer then to that of the south Germans and north Italians, and that the English have a percentage similar to the dutch but of a partially different origin

There is no Western European genetic cluster. There is a northwestern European cluster which includes Brits, Irish, Dutch, Scandinavians. The Northwestern cluster is closer to Central Europeans and Eastern Europeans before any Southwestern Europeans. Also the Bell Beakers that British and Irish descend from are identical to Dutch Bell Beakers and these are identical to Single Grave who are a Corded Ware group. It looks like the Dutch and British Bell Beakers are an offshoot of a Corded Ware group.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/0...l-beakers.html

[Bellbeaking]

Not to get too off topic but perhaps the most undermentioned thing on TA is the fact that southeast Europeans plot closer to England/British Isles than most fully Slavic or Iberian populations. This is especially true with Croatians.

I have stated this quite a bit, true for Irish and Scottish as well.