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Thread: Ireland's Population Was in Serious Decline Before the Vikings

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    It's seems odd that there is so much British in Norwegians
    There was also a more recent migration of British people into Norway in the Early Modern Period (ca. 1500s onwards).

    Evon posted a thread about it showing a map of historical migrations into Norway, but the map doesn't work anymore:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-L21-in-Norway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvinski View Post
    There was a more recent migration of British people into Norway even in Early Modern Period (ca. 1500s onwards).
    Well that shows the folly of using modern populations. I think studies in the future won't make this mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    Well that shows the folly of using modern populations. I think studies in the future won't make this mistake.
    I think it's a mistake to place too much faith in these people and their interpretations.
    Spoiler!

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    Ireland has had several periods where its population has shrunk the most recent was in the great Irish famine.

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    What was the cause of this abnormal decrease in population in Éire?

    Ireland was after the collapse of the Roman Empire one (Languedoc is another one) most spiritually developed and prosperous regions in Europe. Their monastic and communal community was very strong in the centuries after the collapse. Part of the reason why I adore that island so much. Many great men came from this. If there are any people better knowledgable in Irish history, I would love to hear your viewpoints about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    What was the cause of this abnormal decrease in population in Éire?

    Ireland was after the collapse of the Roman Empire one (Languedoc is another one) most spiritually developed and prosperous regions in Europe. Their monastic and communal community was very strong in the centuries after the collapse. Part of the reason why I adore that island so much. Many great men came from this. If there are any people better knowledgable in Irish history, I would love to hear your viewpoints about this.
    If you look at the Annals Ireland was hit by a plague in the 660s so I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the research.

    A great mortality in Ireland came on the calends of August i.e. in Magh Itha in Leinster.
    The Annals of Tigernach 664 AD
    The plague reached Ireland on the Kalends of August.
    Chronicum Scotorum

    A great mortality prevailed in Ireland this year, which was called the Buidhe Connail, and the following number of the saints of Ireland died of it: St. Feichin, Abbot of Fobhar, on the 14th of February; St. Ronan, son of Bearach; St. Aileran the Wise; St. Cronan, son of Silne; St. Manchan, of Liath; St. Ultan Mac hUi Cunga, Abbot of Cluain Iraird Clonard; Colman Cas, Abbot of Cluain Mic Nois; and Cummine, Abbot of Cluain Mic Nois.
    After Diarmaid and Blathmac, the two sons of Aedh Slaine, had been eight years in the sovereignty of Ireland, they died of the same plague.
    There died also Maelbreasail, son of Maelduin, and Cu Gan Mathair, King of Munster; Aenghus Uladh. There died very many ecclesiastics and laics in Ireland of this mortality besides these.
    Annals of the Four Masters 664 AD

    It also devastated Britain.

    In the same year of our Lord 664, there happened an eclipse of the sun, on the third day of May, about the tenth hour of the day. In the same year, a sudden pestilence depopulated first the southern parts of Britain, and afterwards attacking the province of the Northumbrians, ravaged the country far and near, and destroyed a great multitude of men.
    Bede's Ecclesiastical History of England

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvinski View Post
    Yes but the point is they are mostly British and if such people migrated to Norway, they caused a genetic change (British admixture) without any visible cultural change.



    But how many Vikings were there in Ireland? I said they were not numerous enough to have such impact on Irish DNA. Low estimates close to 5% are more probable.



    Late Bronze Age Britons (unlike Early Bronze Age ones) never score "North German" or "Scandinavian" as their top populations in single pop. approximation.

    So by the time of Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age, a British-specific local gene pool formed in the Isles, and it it can be distinguished from other NW Euros.
    I did this on the nMonte Runner. What populations are best to use?

    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_Grace",
    "fit": 2.2038,
    "Scotland_LBA": 93.33,
    "Nordic_BA": 6.67,

    "sample": "Norwegian:Average",
    "fit": 2.1246,
    "Scotland_LBA": 85,
    "Nordic_BA": 15,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    If you look at the Annals Ireland was hit by a plague in the 660s so I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the research.

    A great mortality in Ireland came on the calends of August i.e. in Magh Itha in Leinster.
    The Annals of Tigernach 664 AD
    The plague reached Ireland on the Kalends of August.
    Chronicum Scotorum

    A great mortality prevailed in Ireland this year, which was called the Buidhe Connail, and the following number of the saints of Ireland died of it: St. Feichin, Abbot of Fobhar, on the 14th of February; St. Ronan, son of Bearach; St. Aileran the Wise; St. Cronan, son of Silne; St. Manchan, of Liath; St. Ultan Mac hUi Cunga, Abbot of Cluain Iraird Clonard; Colman Cas, Abbot of Cluain Mic Nois; and Cummine, Abbot of Cluain Mic Nois.
    After Diarmaid and Blathmac, the two sons of Aedh Slaine, had been eight years in the sovereignty of Ireland, they died of the same plague.
    There died also Maelbreasail, son of Maelduin, and Cu Gan Mathair, King of Munster; Aenghus Uladh. There died very many ecclesiastics and laics in Ireland of this mortality besides these.
    Annals of the Four Masters 664 AD

    It also devastated Britain.

    In the same year of our Lord 664, there happened an eclipse of the sun, on the third day of May, about the tenth hour of the day. In the same year, a sudden pestilence depopulated first the southern parts of Britain, and afterwards attacking the province of the Northumbrians, ravaged the country far and near, and destroyed a great multitude of men.
    Bede's Ecclesiastical History of England
    That makes sense then, thank you Grace. That would explain the sudden collapse in population.

  9. #29
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    [1] "distance%=1.3582"

    Irish

    Scotland_LBA,75.2
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1,13.8
    SWE_IA,5.6
    CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany,4
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,1.4

    [1] "distance%=1.2526"

    Irish

    Scotland_LBA,53.6
    England_IA,38.8
    SWE_IA,6.6
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,1

    [1] "distance%=1.0672"

    Irish

    England_Saxon,38 (NO3423)
    Scotland_LBA,29.4
    England_IA,28.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,3.8

    [1] "distance%=1.2657"

    Irish

    Scotland_LBA,59.4
    England_IA,28.8
    England_Saxon,9.4 (I0773)
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,2.4

    [1] "distance%=1.2412"

    Irish

    Scotland_LBA,54
    England_IA,34.6
    DEU_MA,10.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.6
    Spoiler!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    [1] "distance%=1.2526"

    Irish

    Scotland_LBA,53.6
    England_IA,38.8
    SWE_IA,6.6
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,1

    [1] "distance%=1.2657"

    Irish

    Scotland_LBA,59.4
    England_IA,28.8
    England_Saxon,9.4 (I0773)
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,2.4

    [1] "distance%=1.2412"

    Irish

    Scotland_LBA,54
    England_IA,34.6
    DEU_MA,10.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.6
    My father's data compared to these

    [1] "distance%=2.3168"

    CreodaDad_scaled

    Scotland_LBA,59.8
    SWE_IA,40.2

    [1] "distance%=2.7123"

    CreodaDad_scaled

    Scotland_LBA,94.2
    England_Saxon,5.8 (I0773)

    [1] "distance%=2.4471"

    CreodaDad_scaled

    Scotland_LBA,51.2
    DEU_MA,48.8

    Very inconsistent.
    Spoiler!

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