Is Vistula River a genetic border

[Roy]

Peterski, can you elucidate us more on that topic?

[Genetic]

I think that's a good theory and it makes sense.

[rothaer]

There are Polish kits (18) with GEDCOM from podkarpackie voyvodship. Any supposed Subcarpathia kit without Gedcom was removed from average months ago.

Interesting. I always thought PL_Subcarpathia values were a non-representative selection. Most Germans regularly get a slightly elevated similarity with PL_Subcarpathia in the LM Genetics correlation map.

test1.jpg

[rothaer]

...

As for the subject of the thread:

So there basically is a genetic cline within (original) Polish area from east to west. (This is not really unexpected.) This makes areas left of the Vistula river different to areas right of the Vistula river. But this would also apply to ANY north-south line drawn. It does NOT yet induce the Vistula river itself to be a genetic border.

Is there any indication for that?

[rothaer]

Slovaks would prolly be 70-75% Lublin in that run.

Here´s a run for amongst others Slovakia.

test6.jpg

(It´s from the Eurogenes K36 (Lukasz PCA) nMonte Runner

http://185.144.156.77:3000/eurogenes...bpDxLDF-hDco5o

which imo in a resonable way approximates the proportions of proto Slavic and Germanic (AD 1) within a Central European area, geographically roughly limited by Niedersachsen, PL Lublin and the southern border of the Alps.
This model has just three components:

- Niedersachsen as a proxy for Germanic in AD 1.
- PL_Lublin as a proxy for proto Slavic.
- FR_Swiss as a proxy for „southern stuff“, which does also work good in eastern part of the mentioned application area. It´s expressly NOT just about Celts.)

[Leto]

Here´s a run for amongst others Slovakia.

test6.jpg (How do I get the pic to show up automatically?)

(It´s from the Eurogenes K36 (Lukasz PCA) nMonte Runner

http://185.144.156.77:3000/eurogenes...bpDxLDF-hDco5o

which imo in a resonable way approximates the proportions of proto Slavic and Germanic (AD 1) within a Central European area, geographically roughly limited by Niedersachsen, PL Lublin and the southern border of the Alps.
This model has just three components:

- Niedersachsen as a proxy for Germanic in AD 1.
- PL_Lublin as a proxy for proto Slavic.
- FR_Swiss as a proxy for „southern stuff“, which does also work good in eastern part of the mentioned application area. It´s expressly NOT just about Celts.)

Use this tag [IMG] [/IMG] for images.

Why Swiss French and not Bergamo Italy or may even Tuscany?

[rothaer]

Horrible model, why would French Swiss be a good proxy for Celts? They literally have 40% Germanic Y-DNA and can be modelled as significantly Germanic. Poles from Lublin is also a horrible proxy for the original Slavs.

How would the model be better? Suggestions are welcome.

FR_Swiss is not for Celts, but it seems to catch everything south of AD 1 Germanics and proto Slavs in a resonable proportion. "40% Germanic": One has to distinguish late migration period Germanic from the what was Germanic prior to expansion in later Germania magna. Within that expansion in a first step all population in vast prior Celtic areas within later Germania magna were assimilated.

[rothaer]

Use this tag [IMG] [/IMG] for images.

Why Swiss French and not Bergamo Italy or may even Tuscany?

Because that would force a bigger - and imo too big - proportion to the other two components. Regarding the question what would be the correct amount I had a look for the original Germanic areas per AD 1 and these scoring zero of that "southern stuff", but in Germanic expansion area within Germania magna there should a proportion of that component immediately begin to appear. FR_Swiss was just what met these requirements. And fortunately it seems also to work well in the east. Of course this is experimental.

(Pic does also not show up with that tag. I just tried. Maybe because I´m beneath 10 Posts.)

[SharpFork]

Because that would force a bigger - and imo too big - proportion to the other two components. Regarding the question what would be the correct amount I had a look for the original Germanic areas per AD 1 and these scoring zero of that "southern stuff", but in Germanic expansion area within Germania magna there should a proportion of that component immediately begin to appear. FR_Swiss was just what met these requirements. And fortunately it seems also to work well in the east. Of course this is experimental.

(Pic does also not show up with that tag. I just tried. Maybe because I´m beneath 10 Posts.)

Swiss French would catch a lot of Germanic too, Swiss French on Lukasz pca is closer to southern German speakign region than it is to any other Romance speaking ones. It is not a huge change and it's not perfect either but I'd use Aosta valley and and Provence instead. Or maybe we should just see where the Gaulish samples we have(Empures, Bylany) would fall and use those populations, I'm not sure how to do that myself.

[rothaer]

Swiss French would catch a lot of Germanic too, Swiss French on Lukasz pca is closer to southern German speakign region than it is to any other Romance speaking ones. It is not a huge change and it's not perfect either but I'd use Aosta valley and and Provence instead. Or maybe we should just see where the Gaulish samples we have(Empures, Bylany) would fall and use those populations, I'm not sure how to do that myself.

Using IT_Aosta forces Tirol and FR_Swiss to score notable PL_Lublin, which is definitively not correct...

test x.jpg

Btw I don´t think there is any notable Germanic (per 1 AD!!) in FR_Swiss.