The Pelasgians

[arkas]

Not true. Which writer did not consider them Greek?

Ok fine. You're the all-knowing Queen of Greece and I know nothing.

[Daos777]

Pelasgian has always referred to a specific linguistic and tribal group. Herodotus says perfectly clearly that all the Pelasgians no matter where the lived spoke the same UNIQUE dialect common only to them and to no one else. He says without any room for doubt that the Pelasgians were distinguished by the common dialect the spoke.

Pelasgain was a known language and every Greek and Roman author deduced that Hellenic was descended from it.

The Pelasgians were Greeks but not Iapetid Greeks who spoke the Hellenic dialect of Greek. That doesn't mean they didn't speak Greek. Their dialect was related to Arcado-Cypriot, it was older than the Hellenic dialects and we know that the Pelasgians did not follow the rules of Greek grammar so they were called Barbarians even though Herodotus and every other writer said that without a doubt Hellenic dialects was descended from Pelasgic. The words were written down in dialectic form as with Old English and there was no standardisation of either spelling or grammar.

Herodotus says the Pelasgians "... a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied".

A non-Hellenic race that is, not a non-Greek race.

The Pelasgians were not Iapetid i.e Hellenic Greeks. The Hellenes were part of the Iapetid line and came from Hellas (Phthiotis). The Pelasgians and Aigialeans were part of the Inachid line which was part of the Oceanid line.

Hellenes were the decedents of Hellen the son of Deukalion (Iapetid Greeks) and they spoke the Doric, Aeolic and Attic-Ionic dialects.

Herodotus was discussion the origin of the Hellenic race and that race he considered to be a branch of the Pelasgic race. The term Greeks applies to both Hellenes and Palasgains since it was coined by the Romans because the Pelasgians were the first greek speaking people from Greece that they met.

In Herodotus time Pelasgians was still spoken by the Pelasgians beside Thrace and in Creston (Italy) above the Tyrrhenians and everywhere else Pelasgians lived. Herodotus heard the language because he visited these places and know that it was common to all Pelasgians and that Greek was descended from it, whereas it bore no relation to any other languages.

Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly descended from it but not any of the languages of the people who lived next to the Pelasgians. The only thing he did not know was where Pelasgian came from because there was no one else apart from the Hellenes who spoke anything similar to it, not even the Italians and Tyrrhenians or Carians.

The term barbarian was used by Herodotus to refer to people who did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek. It was also used by the Athenians to refer to those who did not speak the Attic dialect of Greek including the Spartans and Macedonians who as we know were both Greek tribes who spoke the Doric dialect.

Hellenes and the Pelasgians were two tribes which occupied Greece at the same time and the Hellenes became dominant. Hellenic was a branch of Pelasgic. The Hellenes were descended from Hellen the son of Deukalion whereas the Pelasgians were decended from Pelasgus the son of Triopas or Pelasgus the son of Niobe and brother of Argos. Deukalion was descended from Iapetus and Argos from Oceanus both sons of Uranus. They were therefore the same people.

Pelasgus was the son of Triopas the king of Argos and thus a relative of Danaus. His son Thessalus went on to colonise Thessaly which was named after him hence the Pelasgians that Herodotus is referring to are Argives.

An Argive is a descendent of Argus. The original Argives were not Hellenes, they were Inachids. Neither the Danaioi, Pelasgians and the original Argives were Hellenes. They were all Greeks, but Inachid Greeks not Hellenic Greeks. The Hellenes were of the same common origin as the Pelasgians but the Hellenes became more dominant.

The people of Greece were descended from 6 founding tribes. 3 of them became almost extinct. 3 survived into the archaic age. The founding tribes assimilated the earlier peoples who inhabited the land in the 18 century BC into 3 or 4 cities with populations of 20,000 to 150,000. These tribes were called Pelasgains or City Dewlers. The Arcadians were also originally Pelasgians as were the Aigialeans. Those who did not dwell in the new cities became extinct after the Thera Eruption in 1600 BC because the land could not support them. This mass extinction is pretty well documented. The Kronids ruleld Crete, the Inachids ruled the Peloponnese, the Iapetids ruled Thessaly, the Hyperionids ruled Troy and the eastern Aegean islands

This is all nice. A lot of mythology and hard to actually deduct any concrete facts about Pelasgian language. But what were the non-Indo-European natives of Greece called by Greeks?


Also you do know of the large amount of non Indo-European words in Greek right? It’s almost like 40 percent non-indo-European if I’m correct. It seems Greek formed from Indo-European and the native languages of Greece. So of course if Pelasgian represents the non-Indo-European language from which Greeks got their non-Indo-European words than there would have been some similarities between Greeks and Pelasgians. Because that’s who the Indo-Europeans who entered Greece mixed with.


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[Daos777]

This is all nice. A lot of mythology and hard to actually deduct any concrete facts about Pelasgian language. But what were the non-Indo-European natives of Greece called by Greeks?


Also you do know of the large amount of non Indo-European words in Greek right? It’s almost like 40 percent non-indo-European if I’m correct. It seems Greek formed from Indo-European and the native languages of Greece. So of course if Pelasgian represents the non-Indo-European language from which Greeks got their non-Indo-European words than there would have been some similarities between Greeks and Pelasgians. Because that’s who the Indo-Europeans who entered Greece mixed with.


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Don’t hold me to this tho. This is all a theory and I need like 2-3 weeks to do the research to see if this actually makes sense.


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[wvwvw]

This is all nice. A lot of mythology and hard to actually deduct any concrete facts about Pelasgian language. But what were the non-Indo-European natives of Greece called by Greeks?

Also you do know of the large amount of non Indo-European words in Greek right? It’s almost like 40 percent non-indo-European if I’m correct. It seems Greek formed from Indo-European and the native languages of Greece. So of course if Pelasgian represents the non-Indo-European language from which Greeks got their non-Indo-European words than there would have been some similarities between Greeks and Pelasgians. Because that’s who the Indo-Europeans who entered Greece mixed with.


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Pelasgian was the language of Mycenean Greeks so we know much about their language. They spoke Arcado-Cypriot Greek.

The Egyptians named the Greeks by their tribal names, Peleset(Pelasgians), Achaeans, Danaoi, Teucer etc. The Peleset were one of the Sea peoples.Wherever they went they left Greek artifacts and potery behind. Now we even have dna samples of these people.

The name Greeks was coined by the Romans from Graecus the son the Thessalus king of Thessaly the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus king of Arcadia since the Pelasgians were the first people from Greece that the Romans encounterd since the Pelasgians colonised Italy in Mycenean times. The language of Graecus was the same language as Pelasgus and was Arcado-Cypriot otherwise known as Mycenaean Greek. Palesgians also colonized Palestine and Philistine (Pelast ie. Pelasgians) inscriptions from Palestine also show they used Greek names.

When the Romans later encountered the Hellenes who were the descendants of Hellene king of Hellas the son of Deucalion king of Pthiotis when they colonised Italy from about the time of the first Olympiad (776 BC) and the foundation of Rome by Romulus (753 BC) they were also called Greeks since they spoke the same language as the Pelasgian tribes that still lived in Italy at the time some of whom who came with Evander in 1250 BC had become Roman citizens.

PIE was NOT the parent language of Greek because PIE is a figment of your imagination. PIE did not exist. It was never spoken by any tribe in history. Indo-European is a dialect of the E and J lineages, it was spread by Greeks in the west, Hittites and Persians in the East, through conquest, trade and the spread of agriculture.

The R lineage originally spoke a Basque-like non-IE language. DNA evidence suggests that there was NEVER a common indo-European language but that separate language evolved in different locations and then merged at the time that the Minoan civilisation conqured Greece, Anatolia, Palestine, Italy and Iberia. This evidence is also backed up by the archeology.

[wvwvw]

But what were the non-Indo-European natives of Greece called by Greeks?

The Minoans and Myceneans weren't pre-Greek, they spoke proto-Greek.

The Helladic civilization of Greece can be called pre-Greek, since they spoke Greco-Phoenician, the parent language of Indo-European AND Messopotamian languages.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helladic_chronology

Greco-Phoenician was very similar to proto-Greek and was spoken throughout Greece, Anatolia and Balkans.

Greeks existed from neolithic era in greek region and didn't came neither from north or east. They were just here. J2 is 45,000 years old, and Ev13 is over 10,000 old. R1 and I were added to the lineages of Greeks from 5000 BC.

Pottery from Sesklo 5000 B.C. with greek style waves.
http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/pub/sesklo.jpg

[Daos777]

PIE was NOT the parent language of Greek because PIE is a figment of your imagination. PIE did not exist. It was never spoken by any tribe in history. Indo-European is a dialect of the E and J lineages, it was spread by Greeks in the west, Hittites and Persians in the East, through conquest, trade and the spread of agriculture.

The R lineage originally spoke a Basque-like non-IE language. DNA evidence suggests that there was NEVER a common indo-European language but that separate language evolved in different locations and then merged at the time that the Minoan civilisation conqured Greece, Anatolia, Palestine, Italy and Iberia. This evidence is also backed up by the archeology.

E and J came into Greece at completely different times from completely different regions and people. E-M78 for sure came from North African hunter gatherers into Southern Europe. THERE IS 0 chance they spoke an Indo-European language. I’d bet that even the later Seslko-Dimini culture did not speak an Indo-European language. Indo-European had to be brought by someone.



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[MiloshN]

E-V13 ?

[Daos777]

E-V13 ?

They most likely had it.


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[Daos777]

The Minoans and Myceneans weren't pre-Greek, they spoke proto-Greek.

The Helladic civilization of Greece can be called pre-Greek, since they spoke Greco-Phoenician, the parent language of Indo-European AND Messopotamian languages.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helladic_chronology

Greco-Phoenician was very similar to proto-Greek and was spoken throughout Greece, Anatolia and Balkans.

Greeks existed from neolithic era in greek region and didn't came neither from north or east. They were just here. J2 is 45,000 years old, and Ev13 is over 10,000 old. R1 and I were added to the lineages of Greeks from 5000 BC.

Pottery from Sesklo 5000 B.C. with greek style waves.
http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/pub/sesklo.jpg

Your dating on J2 is wrong it’s ~ 18,000 years old as is E-M78(and nobody really knows when the E-V13 mutation happened). Basal J is 45,000 years old.

Both J2 and E-M78 are not associated with indo-European languages wtf are you talking about? You’re making it seem like Greece was the birth place of Indo-European languages.

There is proof of E-M78 in Mesolithic Europe but I haven’t seen the same for J2 which entered much later even beyond Neolithic? I haven’t seen any Neolithic J2 samples in Greece. If there are some please provide me with link.

J2 seems to have come to Greek world from Kura-Araxes culture from which Minoans are descended from.

“The Minoan civilisation emerged from 2,700 BCE and could have been founded by colonists from the Kura-Araxes culture who would have brought bronze working with them. Modern Cretans have the highest percentage of G2a (11%), J1 (8.5%), J2a (32%), and L + T (2.5% together) in Greece (and the highest percentage of J1 and J2a in all Europe for that matter), the three haplogroups associated with the Kura-Araxes culture.”

Also Greco-Phoenician? Don’t we know for sure that Phoenician was not indo-European?




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[wvwvw]

E and J came into Greece at completely different times from completely different regions and people. E-M78 for sure came from North African hunter gatherers into Southern Europe. THERE IS 0 chance they spoke an Indo-European language. I’d bet that even the later Seslko-Dimini culture did not speak an Indo-European language. Indo-European had to be brought by someone.

Indo-European or the common European language, evolved from several roots and over the millennia these languages merged by common interaction due to trade, conquest and population migration.

The Greek pattern consists of the M35/Eu4, M172/Eu9 and M173/Eu18 markers in equal proportions, 1/3:1/3:1/3 and is found right across the Mediterranean, which suggests two waves of colonisation one from Anatolia starting in 20,000 BC and another starting in 10,000 BC from the Middle East. The intermixing of the two populations formed the Indo-European speaking Palasgians by 5000 BC and brought with them the basis of Agriculture.

The Greco-Phoenicans (a more proper term) were far older than the Sumerians. The M172 and M35 were the originators of Agriculture and settled Greece and Mesopotamia long before the Summerian Civilisation. This is a known Archeological fact.

Names like names Dumuzi and Inanna have distinct Indo-European roots. The names are meaningless in Sumerian but have a meaning in Greek which suggests that the Indo-European speakers ruled over Mesopotamia long before the Sumerians. The Sumerians borrowed the Gods from the people that lived in the land before them and ruled over them. These people were Indo-European speakers since all the names of the primary Sumerian Gods are Indo-European.

Look at the name of the God of the Phoenicians Melquat. This name is exactly the same as Melech, Maraduk, and even Baal which is the Babylonian equivalent. The point is that the common root of all of these name doe NOT come form an Afro-Asiatic language but come for an Indo-European language.

The linguistic evidence show that the names of all the kings of Mesopotamia and Syria-Palestine have Indo-European roots and when that is combined with the DNA evidence this forms an overwhelming argument that the Gods are an ancestral memory of the people who brought Agriculture to the region. Even the word Pharaoh derive from Wanax as does Phoenix, Felus and Felix.

As said the Intermixing of E and J formed the Neolithic Indo-Eurooean speaking Greeks. In about 4000 BC they were joined by non-Indo-European speaking people who had began a migration from Iberia (Eu18) in about 10,000 BC.

Theses people combined became known as the Hellenes and in 2200 BC they spread to Greece in 3 waves, Xuthians (Achaeans+Ionians) and Aeolians from 1600 and 1450 BC, and finally Dorian's from 1300-1100 BC. Another tribe, probably the same one known as the Enhelenes migrated to Albania in 1600 BC and founded the Illyrian civilisation which is why Greeks and Albanians share almost the same DNA. Since they were outnumbered by Palasgians by 2:1 they lost their original language and began speaking a dialect of Greek or proto-Greek.

Pelasgian, Minoan or Mycenean are wrong terms. We should call the population of Greece prior to 2200 BC, as Helladic, or Greco-Phoenician. The Cretan palace civilization was Hellenic as Aeolian Greeks colonized Crete. Cretans after 2000 BC were of mixed lineages R, J and E lineages. Linear A has been deciphered as Aeolic and proto-Ionic Greek.

Now if you read some dna research you will find that each mtdna lineage is associated with a male ydna. The first mtdna to enter Europe was Ursula who entered Greece 45,000 ago. The Hellena Iberian linage was not there until 20,000 year ago. Thus according to both mt and y DNA analysis the Iberians were there last.

Ursula’s husband’s were the EM72-J2. And Jasmine’s husbands were the M35-E. Helena’s husbands were the M173-R1b. Either you believe the ridicules idea that the M173's wiped out all the Helena men so that not even one single specimen survived to procreate and bear male offspring or you accept that the Helena men were M173's

Jasmine came to Greek 10,000 years ago, but a Ursula also went to Palestine at around the same time. After all two way trading links were established so that would be expected. The SECOND most predominant DNA marker in Phoenician populations is the Ursula marker.

The Proto-Ionian Greeks were there and were building cities in 2200 BC. DNA analysis shows that the "Ursula" Greeks were there as early as 10,000 years ago and dominated the area in about 2000 BC. The names of their cities Tyre and Sidon both derive from Greek roots.and pop up at the same time that the palaces of Knossos and Troy appear.

The DNA evidence shows that Syria-Palestine was populated by Indo-Europeans and this is where the Proto-Indo-European language was disseminated from.

By the amount of phonetic corruption that is taking place the assumption is that the Indo-European people of Greece, Asia-Minor and the Middle East spoke a common language about 9000 years ago.