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Thread: Was Sif originally the norse sun goddess?

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    Default Was Sif originally the norse sun goddess?

    I'm sure all of us Norse mythology nerds out there know about Sol, the personification of the sun in Norse myth, but I've noticed something when looking at other indo-european mythologies... the thunder god seems to almost always have a sun/fire related wife! for Baltic Perkunas there is Saule who cheated on him with the moon causing him to cut the moon in half, Hittite Tarhunna is husband of Arinna, the sun goddess, and Tuireann, the Irish form of Taranis the thunderer is said to have his children with Brigid, the fiery Athena like goddess of Ireland. Loucetios, an epithet of Taranis is thought to be the consort of Sulis, the British Celtic sun god also associated with Minerva/Athena.

    Also her hair is said to be golden like grain (or the sun?) and loki once cut it off (an eclipse?) and was forced to get dwarves to make a wig for her till it grew back...
    Discuss your thoughts...

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    bump

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    Originally? I haven't ever known any other. I've never even heard of Sol as it pertains to Norse lore. The only Sol I know of is Roman. Latin. Sol. "Sun."

    Apparently, Wiki has this to say regarding Sol in Norse myth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki:Sol(sun)
    Scholars have proposed that Sól, as a goddess, may represent an extension of an earlier Proto-Indo-European deity due to Indo-European linguistic connections between Norse Sól, Sanskrit Surya, Common Brittonic Sulis, Lithuanian Saulė, Latin Sol, and Slavic Tsar Solnitse.[18]

    Regarding Sól's attested personifications in Norse mythology, John Lindow states that "even kennings like 'hall of the sun' for sky may not suggest personification, given the rules of kenning formation"; that in poetry only stanzas associated with Sól in the poem Vafţrúđnismál are certain in their personification of the goddess; and "that Sól is female and Máni male probably has to do with the grammatical gender of the nouns: Sól is feminine and Máni is masculine." Lindow states that, while the Sun seems to have been a focus of older Scandinavian religious practices, it is difficult to make a case for the placement of the sun in a central role in surviving sources for Norse mythology.[10]

    Rudolf Simek states that Nordic Bronze Age archaeological finds, such as rock carvings and the Trundholm sun chariot, provide ample evidence of the Sun having been viewed as a life-giving heavenly body to the Bronze Age Scandinavians, and that the Sun likely always received an amount of veneration. Simek states that the only evidence of the Sun assuming a personification stems from the Old High German Incantation reference and from Poetic Edda poems, and that both of these references do not provide enough information to assume a Germanic sun cult. "On the other hand", Simek posits, the "great age of the concept is evident" by the Trundholm sun chariot, which specifically supports the notion of the Sun being drawn across the sky by horses. Simek further theorizes that the combination of sun symbols with ships in religious practices, which occur with frequency from the Bronze Age into Middle Ages, seem to derive from religious practices surrounding a fertility god (such as the Vanir gods Njörđr or Freyr), and not to a personified sun.[19]
    In the article on Sif, it connected her with Ceres who was compared with brightness and fire renewing the Earth's fertility. That certainly sounds solar to me, but nowhere in the article does it state that specifically i.e. Sif as a sun goddess.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Óttar View Post
    Originally? I haven't ever known any other. I've never even heard of Sol as it pertains to Norse lore. The only Sol I know of is Roman. Latin. Sol. "Sun."

    Apparently, Wiki has this to say regarding Sol in Norse myth:



    In the article on Sif, it connected her with Ceres who was compared with brightness and fire renewing the Earth's fertility. That certainly sounds solar to me, but nowhere in the article does it state that specifically i.e. Sif as a sun goddess.
    well any ties seem loose to me, perhaps she related to latin Aurora and celtic Brigid, both being dawn goddesses

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    Norse mythology is probably a mix of native, neolithic farmer and indo-European. Thunder gods are usually attributed to fire or has a sibling or spouse who is the god of fire. Like Shango the famous diety in Latin America, Tawhaki who's story has a lot to do with fire, Astrape and Bronte who's stories also talk about fire etc. These narratives are very common. Marduk also uses fire to an extent. Zeus also transforms into fire and fiery creatures several times.
    Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.

    Even if this were hard--that is how it is ! Assuredly, however, by far the harder fate is that which strikes the man who thinks he can overcome Nature, but in the last analysis only mocks her. Distress, misfortune, and diseases are her answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoEuropean View Post
    Norse mythology is probably a mix of native, neolithic farmer and indo-European. Thunder gods are usually attributed to fire or has a sibling or spouse who is the god of fire. Like Shango the famous diety in Latin America, Tawhaki who's story has a lot to do with fire, Astrape and Bronte who's stories also talk about fire etc. These narratives are very common. Marduk also uses fire to an extent. Zeus also transforms into fire and fiery creatures several times.
    well I'm going mostly off of indo-european mythologies, because they're clearly related

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldNorth View Post
    well I'm going mostly off of indo-european mythologies, because they're clearly related
    Highly debatable.
    Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.

    Even if this were hard--that is how it is ! Assuredly, however, by far the harder fate is that which strikes the man who thinks he can overcome Nature, but in the last analysis only mocks her. Distress, misfortune, and diseases are her answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoEuropean View Post
    Highly debatable.
    Not really, there’s plenty of reconstructable indo-european gods,
    Dyeus-pth2er: the sky father, Zeus, Jupiter, Rod, Deivas
    Perkwunos: the serpent slaying lightning god, Thor, Perun, Taranis, Indra, Perkunas, Heracles
    Neptonos: the god of the fire upon the water, Neptune, Nechtan, Poseidon, Ćegir, Apam Napat
    Paxuson: the horned shepherd, guardian of pathways, Pan, Pusan, Cernunnos
    Gwouwinda: the cow goddess and wife of the sky father, Hera, Boann, Sarasvatī
    Xausos: dawn goddess, Aurora, Brigid, Zorya, Eostre, Eos, Usas
    And many many more

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldNorth View Post
    Not really, there’s plenty of reconstructable indo-european gods,
    Dyeus-pth2er: the sky father, Zeus, Jupiter, Rod, Deivas
    Perkwunos: the serpent slaying lightning god, Thor, Perun, Taranis, Indra, Perkunas, Heracles
    Neptonos: the god of the fire upon the water, Neptune, Nechtan, Poseidon, Ćegir, Apam Napat
    Paxuson: the horned shepherd, guardian of pathways, Pan, Pusan, Cernunnos
    Gwouwinda: the cow goddess and wife of the sky father, Hera, Boann, Sarasvatī
    Xausos: dawn goddess, Aurora, Brigid, Zorya, Eostre, Eos, Usas
    And many many more
    Considering the history of those start long after indo-Europeans and trace to the bronze age when all cultures and ethnicities were meshed, makes it pretty bold to say their origins aren't local. Similarities exist across the religious spectrum and the fact we speak a language doesn't make all things interconnected we all speak English on this site and hardly any of us are English. Language spreads through trade. The old notion of everything is indo-European is way outdated and was propagated by scientists who in todays standard would be mostly considered pseudo-scientists. There isn't a consensus is religious anthropology about anything. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All those Gods have majorly different stories unique to the areas tthey are native to. The basics of pagan and shamanistic religions are boiler plate and to distinguish one from the other and say this was the first thunder god or this god is that god is dubious when most have little to do with each other the deeper you go.
    Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.

    Even if this were hard--that is how it is ! Assuredly, however, by far the harder fate is that which strikes the man who thinks he can overcome Nature, but in the last analysis only mocks her. Distress, misfortune, and diseases are her answer.

    Kekgenes K13

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoEuropean View Post
    Considering the history of those start long after indo-Europeans and trace to the bronze age when all cultures and ethnicities were meshed, makes it pretty bold to say their origins aren't local. Similarities exist across the religious spectrum and the fact we speak a language doesn't make all things interconnected we all speak English on this site and hardly any of us are English. Language spreads through trade. The old notion of everything is indo-European is way outdated and was propagated by scientists who in todays standard would be mostly considered pseudo-scientists. There isn't a consensus is religious anthropology about anything. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All those Gods have majorly different stories unique to the areas tthey are native to. The basics of pagan and shamanistic religions are boiler plate and to distinguish one from the other and say this was the first thunder god or this god is that god is dubious when most have little to do with each other the deeper you go.
    Excuse me but what? The indo Europeans were one during the Bronze Age, but not ALL people, you’d have to go to the early Stone Age in order to come to when all humans are one major ethnic group...

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