Global25 model for East Germans

[SharpFork]

You still didn't address whether those settlements with Slavic names were counted because they had any Slavic names at all or because they had it in substantial or sizeable numbers. It changes a lot.

[Peterski]

Apparently it did in some way

On Rugen, it was a language shift triggered mainly by the church (sermons in German) and by prince's decision to make German the official language.

The number of actual Germans who came to the island was very low.

as I understood there is this claim that Ranian died in 1404 and it comes from Thomas Kantzow

Here is what the author of the article wrote about it:

"Kantzow, while describing the history of Pomerania, probably even visited Rügen personally. As a person aware of his Slavic ancestry, he often mentioned Slavs in his chronicle. However, he was first of all a member of Pomerania's upper classes, a community consisting - in his times - already only of German-speaking people.

He was spending his time among the nobles and burghers of the most important urban centers of contemporary Pomerania, which did not have - or barely had - any contact with the remnants of Slavic-speaking population.

It is certain, that Kantzow was not able to personally visit all the corners of his country, and therefore what he wrote cannot be considered as a definite proof regarding remants of Slavic-speakers, who often lived in places difficult to access and unattractive for settlement.

Moreover and importantly, it is possible that the note about the alleged last Slavic-speaking Ranian (Gulitzin), was not written by Kantzow himself, but by his continuator [who edited Kantzow's chronicle after his death] - Niklaus Klempzen. The latter did not have inclinations to be an ethnographer engaging in fieldwork.

I will add, that the death of Gulitzin in year 1404 as allegedly the last person who still spoke the Ranian variant of Slavic, would be really unusual, considering that in the 1300s Slavic language was still widespread among knights of Rugen.

From year 1401 we have a note about the owner of village Smatewitze - Dubbeslaw Smatewitze.

Other documents mention Sulleslavus Sunnevytze (1403), Dubbermar and Sulleslaw von Schelle (1403), Gambie (1451), Sum vel Tzum (1436), Stoislaus de Kaland (1496!). In the cities, we have even more evidence of Slavic population, also from the 15th century. For example Dareslaf Barnekow (1434), Radeke Gyle (1437), Radeke Krol (1426), Stannyke (1453) etc. And of course the most Slavic was the rural population...

Therefore I think that treating that note about the alleged extinction of Slavic language on Rugen in year 1404, as a 100% confirmed fact, is unsubstantiated."

You still didn't address whether those settlements with Slavic names were counted because they had any Slavic names at all or because they had it in substantial or sizeable numbers. It changes a lot.

I don't know, but I can ask him.

Edit:

I sent him a PM and asked about it.

[Peterski]

What about Slavic language in Wendland? There were also some "false alarms" there, when it comes to extinction:

1600 - there were ca. 15,000 to 20,000 Slavic-speakers
1756 - alleged extinction first reported
1798 - alleged extinction reported again
1832 - newspaper claimed there were still some speakers
1845 - again some speakers were reported
1890 census - 585 declared Wendish Muttersprache (!)
1902 - old teacher claimed some people still spoke it
1914 - only German-speakers were found

^^^
For 150 years after extinction was first reported, there were still people who spoke it or at least identified as Wends.

[rothaer]

Among nobles, not among simple peasants.

Regarding Mecklenburg I just stated this: "it´s well possible, not to say likely, also Mecklenburg commoners were named after their parents and grandparents, maybe even a number of generations after end of usage of Slavic language".

Do you regard it unlikely, recently linguistically germanised people still could name a child after their well known grandfather?

Simple people do regularly anyhow not know etymology. This means they did anyhow not reflect wether a particular first name had a Slavic or a Germanic etymology. Even today a lot of people do not know. If there was the appreciated great grandfather with that name and the name was well known, why shouldn´t they go on and call their child Tetzlaff or Tetzel?

On the other hand: In an old exploration regarding proportion of Slavic personal names (family names and first names) in Mecklenburg with the intention to estimate the proportion of Old German and Slavic ancestry (it was then expressly very roughly estimated as half and half) there can be seen an unexplained elevation of Slavic surnames compared to the centuries before in the mid of 16th century. There has been speculated by the author that might have been a (maybe conscious) trend in connection with vanishing of Slavic language.

So beside very early times of ostsiedlung the highest proportion of Slavic (sur)names actually coincides with the time of assumed vanishing of Slavic language.

This example shows interpretation of such findings in respect to usage of Slavic language is a complex task.

[Peterski]

Please check my "Sorbian challenge" here. So far, user Dick is winning (he got the best fit):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ge-on-Global25

[Sebbo]

Do we, know where exactly the samples from Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt were from? The Limes Sorabicus runs through both of these states with the majority of both of them being West of the Elbe and Saale.

I would imagine that those areas in these states further to the east are more Slavic.

Of particular interest would be Dessau since it is one of the major cities almost equidistant between the border of the state of Brandenburg and the Saale.