Global25 model for East Germans

[Peterski]

Looks pretty solid:



I think this German_East average (8 samples) is from Leipzig (the same as German_Lipsian from MDLP K16 calc)?

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EDIT:

genetically the border created by the Slavic migrations and centuries long rule in Eastern Germany is very real and correlates a lot wit the ex-GDR territories.

Germans between the Oder and Elbe are descended from West Germanic settlers who came during the Ostsiedlung and mixed with local Slavic-speaking population. Check the thread below where I posted some excerpts from Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle" where he describes the Wendish Crusade and German settlement:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...nd-Brandenburg

Distribution of ethnic groups around the year 850 AD:



Eastward migration of German peasants after 1100 AD:



Political expansion of Brandenburg (Askanian Dynasty):



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The main literary source about those events is Saxon historian, Helmold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmold

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 57 - "Foundation of the city of Lübeck" - about colonization of Wagria:



"(...) Count Adolf started building the castle of Segeberg and fortified it. Because the land was ravaged, he sent messengers to many regions, namely to Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia and Frisia, with a message that if they needed more land they were free to come with their families, and they would be given a lot of good fertile land, full of fish and game, rich in vast pastures. He also told Holsatians and Sturmarians: 'Aren't you the ones who conquered Slavic land and obtained it through deaths of your brothers and relatives? So why should you settle as the last ones? Be first, start migrating to this desired land, settle it and benefit from its resources' (...). After that call, huge crowds of people from various nations started coming, together with their families and property, to the land of the Wagrians ruled by Adolf, who promised to give them land.

Holsatians were given safe areas to the west of Segeberg, near the Trave river, including the Zuentineveld [modern Bornhöved] fields as well as everything between the river Schwale up to Agrimesov [modern Grimmeisberg] and up to Lake Plön.

The region of Dargun [modern Warder and Ahrensbök/Stoob] was settled by Westphalians.

The region of Utyn [Eutin] was settled by Hollanders.

The region of Süsel [south-east of Eutin] was settled by Frisians.

The region of Plön still remained depopulated for the time being.

Regions of Starogard [Oldenburg] and Lutjenburg as well as other areas along the sea coast were left for farming to the Slavs, who now had to pay rent to Count Adolf (...)".

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Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 91 - about colonization of Mecklenburg:



"Heinrich, Count of Ratzeburg in the land of Polabian Slavs, brought masses of Westphalian settlers, in order for them to settle in the land of the Slavs. And he divided the land between them. And they built churches, and they started paying taxes from their farming income for the Glory of God. And God's deed started to spread throughout the land of the Slavs under Heinrich's reign, and was completed during the reign of his son, Bernard. On the other hand, Holsatians who settled in Wagria after expulsion of local Slavs, were very zealous when it comes to building new churches, and were very hospitable, but they avoided paying taxes. (...)"

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Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 88 titled "About Albrecht the Bear":



[SIZE=5]"At that time Slavic lands were ruled by Margrave Albrecht, also known as the Bear, who - thanks to God's grace - managed to conquer large Slavic territories. He captured entire land of Stodoranians, Brezans and many other tribes living at the Elbe and Havel rivers. And he was crushing those of them who were trying to rebel against his rule. When decimated Slavs started to slowly disappear, Albrecht sent messangers to Utrecht and to lands along the Rhine river and also to those who lived along the ocean's coast and suffered a lot from violent storms of the sea - namely Hollanders, Zealanders and Flemish people - and he brought many settlers from among them, and he settled them within Slavic towns and villages. Thanks to that colonization by foreigners, the Bishopric of Brandenburg and Havelberg increased its strength, because the number of churches and tax income increased. But also southern banks of the Elbe river were at that time colonized by Dutch newcomers, they settled lands around Salzwedel, and Balsemerland [around Stendal and Halberstadt], and Marscinerland [between Arneburg and Werben], with many towns and villages, extending as far as the Bohemian Forest. (...)"

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Polish edition of Helmold's chronicle (in PDF):

http://bc.wimbp.lodz.pl/Content/1233..._kronika_a.pdf

[Dick]

It's possiblski

[SharpFork]

If you use Swedish instead of the medieval German samples you get smaller Sorb influence:

"sample": "German_East:Average",
"fit": 0.8902,
"Sorb_Niederlausitz": 35,
"Swedish": 25,
"Swiss_German": 22.5,
"Dutch": 17.5,

Swedish does't seem to work like some kind of relevantly Baltic/Slavic shifted Germanic nation, replacing Swiss_German with Lithuanian doesn't change the Swedish values:

"sample": "German_East:Average",
"fit": 1.0912,
"Dutch": 40.83,
"Sorb_Niederlausitz": 25,
"Swedish": 23.33,
"Lithuanian": 10.83,

This Sorb sample is farther away than Poles interestingly enough:

"sample": "German_East:Average",
"fit": 0.5529,
"Polish": 51.67,
"Dutch": 21.67,
"Swiss_German": 19.17,
"Swedish": 7.5,

If you switch and try to model Poles using this Sorb sample:

"sample": "Polish:Average",
"fit": 0.9455,
"Sorb_Niederlausitz": 44.17,
"Lithuanian": 30.83,
"Dutch": 18.33,
"Swedish": 6.67,

So if we created a model based on this(though we need more samples, they are generally to low) East Germans from Leipzig are about 35% pre-Ostsiedlung West Slavs while Poles are 75% so.

Edit:Obviously this works assuming Dutch and Swedes work as proxy of Slavs without much Slavic influence and the Sorb sample as a proxy of West Slavs without German admixture.

[SharpFork]

This Sorb samples interacts weirdly when one looks at modelling Poles Slavic heritage using Ukranians, the Germanic impact decreases to just 15%. Maybe the problem is the fact we just have one sample from Sorbs? Maybe that's also why the Poles seems to be closer to East Germans too.

Question is also where the Polish and Ukranian samples in G25 come from, if it uses a lot of Western Ukranians or resettled Poles it becomes useless. Same goes for the East Germans.

Edit: Heck even using Ukranian instead of Sorb gives a higher Slavic figure(44% instead of 35%)

[Leto]

"East Germany" is an obsolete political division. Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt are Central Germany, Meck-Pomm is Northeastern (they should be quite Nordic racially). In fact, the ex-GDR is still referred to by many as Mitteldeutschland (Central Germany) because parts of modern Czechia and Poland used to belong to the German empire.

[SharpFork]

"East Germany" is an obsolete political division. Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt are Central Germany, Meck-Pomm is Northeastern (they should be quite Nordic racially). In fact, the ex-GDR is still referred to by many as Mitteldeutschland (Central Germany) because parts of modern Czechia and Poland used to belong to the German empire.

Not sure how that's relevant tbh, genetically the border created by the Slavic migrations and centuries long rule in Eastern Germany is very real and correlates a lot wit the ex-GDR territories.

[Leto]

Not sure how that's relevant tbh, genetically the border created by the Slavic migrations and centuries long rule in Eastern Germany is very real and correlates a lot wit the ex-GDR territories.

Okay.
EaSt GeRmAnZ aRe MoNgReLiZeD pOlEz.

[SharpFork]

Okay.
EaSt GeRmAnZ aRe MoNgReLiZeD pOlEz.

What's the problem? You find problems with the metholodogy? You think Eastern Germans were like this prior the Slavic migrations? Not sure what your point is.

[Lucas]

What's the problem? You find problems with the metholodogy? You think Eastern Germans were like this prior the Slavic migrations? Not sure what your point is.

He talked about administrative division prior to 1945. Simply GDR area was named Central Germany back then.
East Germany were those territories which were added to Poland after WWII (more or less).

Look at the map and think were GDR is. If it wasn't Central Germany on this map, so were Central Germany was located?

The same situation was for today eastern Poland. Before WWII it was Central Poland geographically...

[Leto]

Thüringen & Sachsen-Anhalt


Any DNA results from there? Also Meck-Pomm is interesting.