To what degree are English people descended from Brythonic peoples

**Adoptee** · 09-06-2019, 12:22 PM

I am curious to what degree the modern English are descended from Celtic and pre-Celtic Britons rather than from anglo-saxons and Normans

**Creoda** · 09-06-2019, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Adoptee

I am curious to what degree the modern English are descended from Celtic and pre-Celtic Britons rather than from anglo-saxons and Normans

Probably at least 50-55% descended from the Celtic Britons.
From the pre-Celtic British is a difficult question, but I think they are minority descended from the Bronze Age British, 25-40%. Especially in the South East.

**Watersater79** · 03-19-2024, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Creoda

Probably at least 50-55% descended from the Celtic Britons.
From the pre-Celtic British is a difficult question, but I think they are minority descended from the Bronze Age British, 25-40%. Especially in the South East.

2019 is certainly a world away from now in this context. All-in-all it seems to roughly half of that at this point, or at least in SE England it comes to 25%. The question, ofc, concerns the 'Iron Age French' component within the English genome, which no doubt originated in what was then (500-1000 AD) the Frankish Kingdoms, but whether they would have had Germanic admixture. Considering it emphasised the 'Iron Age' aspect, one could say this was before the Germanic tribes even made headway into what is now northern France?

**Creoda** · 03-20-2024, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Watersater79

2019 is certainly a world away from now in this context. All-in-all it seems to roughly half of that at this point, or at least in SE England it comes to 25%. The question, ofc, concerns the 'Iron Age French' component within the English genome, which no doubt originated in what was then (500-1000 AD) the Frankish Kingdoms, but whether they would have had Germanic admixture. Considering it emphasised the 'Iron Age' aspect, one could say this was before the Germanic tribes even made headway into what is now northern France?

Yes indeed, I didn't see that one coming. But in my defence nobody did. It's still amazing to me that 1500 years of English history has been fundamentally rewritten by that one study. And yet very few have talked about it since. It's still anyone's guess what the true origin of this CWE influence was.

**Watersater79** · 03-20-2024, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Creoda

Yes indeed, I didn't see that one coming. But in my defence nobody did. It's still amazing to me that 1500 years of English history has been fundamentally rewritten by that one study. And yet very few have talked about it since. It's still anyone's guess what the true origin of this CWE influence was.

Oh we were all caught off guard by it, hahaha. It's still interesting, though, is it not, that the NE of England is (according to the study) is as Brythonic as Cornwall? Without sounding dumb could there be a minor 'blip' in the study? It makes sense that Cumbria is firmly Brythonic, but that NE England is basically the same when it is far more in the geographical trajectory of Anglo-Saxon migration.

**Watersater79** · 03-20-2024, 02:39 PM

Phenotype doesn't always correlate directly to genotype, but I seriously refuse to believe the NE is as 'Brythonic' as is stated (2022). There is no way that Sting could come from a region that is pred. Brythonic and he is someone with Irish/Scottish ancestry as well!

Or it's more that the NE can't be indistinguishable from Cumbria. He is one example, but he is certainly one of many. Here we have the Cumbrian Melvyn Bragg.

Cumbria is just far more 'isolated'.

**Creoda** · 03-21-2024, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Watersater79

Oh we were all caught off guard by it, hahaha. It's still interesting, though, is it not, that the NE of England is (according to the study) is as Brythonic as Cornwall? Without sounding dumb could there be a minor 'blip' in the study? It makes sense that Cumbria is firmly Brythonic, but that NE England is basically the same when it is far more in the geographical trajectory of Anglo-Saxon migration.

I don't think it's wrong. All indications from genetic studies over the years point to NE England being one of the most Brittonic/Insular Celtic parts of England. They cluster more with border Scots than with other English for one thing. Paradoxically NE England is also supposed to be the blondest part of England. Bear in mind the North of England has far less French blood than the South. The main takeway from the Gretzinger paper was that the equation is no longer just Anglo-Saxon vs Briton but Anglo-Saxon vs Briton vs Gaul. If Iceland was compared in the same paper it might have more 'WBI' than England, and it seems the Faroese are close to half Insular Celtic, yet still look quite Norse.

Originally Posted by Watersater79

Phenotype doesn't always correlate directly to genotype, but I seriously refuse to believe the NE is as 'Brythonic' as is stated (2022). There is no way that Sting could come from a region that is pred. Brythonic and he is someone with Irish/Scottish ancestry as well!

Or it's more that the NE can't be indistinguishable from Cumbria. He is one example, but he is certainly one of many. Here we have the Cumbrian Melvyn Bragg.

Cumbria is just far more 'isolated'.

But all English are over half 'Celtic' (forget Brittonic) ancestrally, yet plenty are fully Germanic looking. Even in places where Germanic ancestry is definitely lower than in England, like Scotland or France, you get fully Germanic looking people.

**Tooting Carmen** · 03-21-2024, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Watersater79

Phenotype doesn't always correlate directly to genotype, but I seriously refuse to believe the NE is as 'Brythonic' as is stated (2022). There is no way that Sting could come from a region that is pred. Brythonic and he is someone with Irish/Scottish ancestry as well!

Or it's more that the NE can't be indistinguishable from Cumbria. He is one example, but he is certainly one of many. Here we have the Cumbrian Melvyn Bragg.

Cumbria is just far more 'isolated'.

NE England actually has quite a lot of darker types. Not everyone there looks like Sting or Lauren Laverne LOL. Some examples:

Cheryl Tweedy

Ross Noble

Anthony Hutton

Ant McPartlin

Jimmy Nail

Rowan Atkinson

**Watersater79** · 03-21-2024, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen

NE England actually has quite a lot of darker types. Not everyone there looks like Sting or Lauren Laverne LOL. Some examples:

Cheryl Tweedy

Ross Noble

Anthony Hutton

Ant McPartlin

Jimmy Nail

Rowan Atkinson

Well aware of that, in fact, if anything, when one thinks of an 'Englishy' look it usually concerns those of a KN/Nordo-Med persuasion, one where Germanic admixture is not noticeable.

**Watersater79** · 03-21-2024, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Creoda

I don't think it's wrong. All indications from genetic studies over the years point to NE England being one of the most Brittonic/Insular Celtic parts of England. They cluster more with border Scots than with other English for one thing. Paradoxically NE England is also supposed to be the blondest part of England. Bear in mind the North of England has far less French blood than the South. The main takeway from the Gretzinger paper was that the equation is no longer just Anglo-Saxon vs Briton but Anglo-Saxon vs Briton vs Gaul. If Iceland was compared in the same paper it might have more 'WBI' than England, and it seems the Faroese are close to half Insular Celtic, yet still look quite Norse.

But all English are over half 'Celtic' (forget Brittonic) ancestrally, yet plenty are fully Germanic looking. Even in places where Germanic ancestry is definitely lower than in England, like Scotland or France, you get fully Germanic looking people.

But again we are not sure that the 'French' component was not entirely lacking in Germanic admixture? It could be possible that said 'Frankish' population was of mixed 'Celtic' and Germanic descent. The evidence you have of the 'Celtic' element concerning France is the emphasization of the Iron Age?