Key delusions of pan-Europeanists

[Tooting Carmen]

First of all, I voted to Remain in the EU three years ago and would do so again given the chance today. However, I support the EU mostly for practical and technocratic reasons - it facilitates trade, travel and diplomacy in the continent. What I don't buy in the slightest is all the romantic and ethnocultural bullshit some advocate for European unity.

(1) "Especially compared to the US, European countries are overwhelmingly liberal and/or well-governed".
It is mostly leftists who believe this. They will constantly harp on about Trump, the KKK and Jim Crow laws, conveniently overlooking current European leaders who are at least equally right-wing and extreme as Trump such as Le Pen, Wilders, Salvini, Orban etc., and most of all European countries' own inglorious history of colonialism, communism and fascism.

(2) "Europeans all look the same and can all pass as natives in each others' countries".
This is a delusion that unites both rightists and leftists alike. Now I know it is a discussion I do bring up a lot, but still it was interesting how in a thread I opened the other day even forum users who often accuse me of overstating the differences between Europeans said that very few Danes pass in Southern Europe. Usually, pan-Europeanists either claim that super-swarthy Southern Euros like Megan Montaner and Lucianna di Falco are of gypsy or foreign descent, or conversely that they still somehow pass better in Sweden than in Lebanon. (In addition, the existence of Slavs and Scandinavians with pseudo-Mongoloid traits also tends to get overlooked).

(3) "Europeans all speak English, which effectively gives the continent a single unifying language".
This delusion also unites rightists and leftists alike. While it is true that English is almost universal in the Nordic countries and the Netherlands, and even in Germany and some surrounding countries it is in the 50-60% range, this is much less true in the rest of the continent. Certainly, rest assured that in many rural areas of Portugal, Spain, Italy, Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Romania and possibly even France the percentage of people who can speak English beyond a very basic level would barely if at all surpass 10%. (To say nothing of non-EU member countries like Russia, Ukraine, Serbia and Albania).

[Cernunnos]

Speaking about my country, it's not well governed, Portugal it's like the Guatemala of Europe in many stuffs due to it's Social Democrat/Socialist government who pretends to be moderate, certainly not the Whitest and Portuguese actualy speak English in outstanding levels, at least the younger generations, rural Portugal represents less than 40% of the population.

[Tooting Carmen]

Speaking about my country, it's not well governed, Portugal it's like the Guatemala of Europe in many stuff due to it's Social Democrat/Socialist government who pretends, certainly not the Whitest and Portuguese actually speak English in outstanding levels, at least the younger generations, rural Portugal represents less than 40% of the population.

Apart from Lisbon, Porto and Faro, what other large cities are there in Portugal? I thought many people still lived in rural areas, especially in the North.

[Cernunnos]

Apart from Lisbon, Porto and Faro, what other large cities are there in Portugal? I thought many people still lived in rural areas, especially in the North.

Braga, Aveiro, Viseu and Setúbal (which is a satelite city of Lisbon)

[Tooting Carmen]

Braga, Aveiro, Viseu and Setúbal (which is a satelite city of Lisbon)

Still, circa 40% rural population is high for a developed country. And your point about Portugal's poor governance is prescient - the stark truth is that many Southern and Eastern European countries have levels of corruption more comparable to much of Latin America and even pockets of Africa than they do to Scandinavia (see Transparency International's annual Corruption Perceptions Index for more info). I also strongly doubt that the standard of English is as high in Portugal as in the Netherlands and Scandinavia even among the young.

[Adamastor]

I also strongly doubt that the standard of English is as high in Portugal as in the Netherlands and Scandinavia even among the young.

Maybe not Scandinavian level but Portuguese people speak very good English, just compare the Portuguese users here with Spaniards and Italians. The difference is immense.

[Tooting Carmen]

Maybe not Scandinavian level but Portuguese people speak very good English, just compare the Portuguese users here with Spaniards and Italians. The difference is immense.

Insofar as that is true at all, it is probably because Portugal is rather smaller than Spain and Italy and thus less self-sufficient and more dependent on foreign tourism in particular.

[Abdelnour]

I can only comment on #2.

The only time I see this is when a poster on this forum, usually a Southern European, reacting negatively when being compared to MENA and hence post pics of their Northern looking people and Arabid/SSA MENAs to show a great contrast in difference. Hellenas was notorious for doing this and another Greek poster was doing this too in this thread:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post3989309

Almost all the women in that example had blonde hair. Not very realistic considering no Southern European countries have people with blonde hair over that is over 20 percent of the population.

There are differences between Southern Euros and MENAs, but examples here are shown are taken by extreme exaggeration.

[Tooting Carmen]

I can only comment on #2.

The only time I see this is when a poster on this forum, usually a Southern European, reacting negatively when being compared to MENA and hence post pics of their Northern looking people and Arabid/SSA MENAs to show a great contrast in difference. Hellenas was notorious for doing this and another Greek poster was doing this too in this thread:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post3989309

Almost all the women in that example had blonde hair. Not very realistic considering no Southern European countries have people with blonde hair over that is over 20 percent of the population.

There are differences between Southern Euros and MENAs, but examples here are shown are taken by extreme exaggeration.

Actually, brennus was usually quite a sensible and moderate poster (shame he's gone). However, I do agree that there is an almost ideological, even religious sentiment behind the idea that any European automatically passes better at the opposite end of Europe than in a nearby non-European country, however much evidence there may be to the contrary.

[Cernunnos]

Still, circa 40% rural population is high for a developed country. And your point about Portugal's poor governance is prescient - the stark truth is that many Southern and Eastern European countries have levels of corruption more comparable to much of Latin America and even pockets of Africa than they do to Scandinavia (see Transparency International's annual Corruption Perceptions Index for more info). I also strongly doubt that the standard of English is as high in Portugal as in the Netherlands and Scandinavia even among the young.

Scandinavia and Netherlands are Germanic speaking countries and it's much more easy for them to learn English, actually I think Dutch is the closest language to English or maybe nearby German dialects, so it's like me learning Spanish.

As for the governance, Portugal is probably the most left wing country in Europe, even in it's constitution it is mentioned that is directioned towards Socialism. The main centre left party (the Socialist one, similar to the Labor party in the UK), which despite it's name is a Social Democrat party is governing trough an agreement with the other two leftist parties which belong to the left to far left wing spectrums (The marxist-leninist PCP, which became an orphan of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the East Bloc and the Trotskyist Left Bloc).

The country is growing slower than the predictions of the government and unemployment has been decreasing for almost 4 years, also the minimum wage was increased, so now people are all happy, and every poll is predicting a major left wing victory with the three leftist parties having 55-60% of the votes combined (even though it is projected a percentage decrease for the Communist Party, a trend since 1991 for obvious reasons), but with the global markets and many experts expecting a new global recession, perhaps in the early years of the next decade all will be ruined. Also the Socialist Party is seaking for an absolute majority which historicaly have been disastrous for Portugal, but the Portuguese are notorious for having a short memory. Also public debt is increasing, but has the gdp has increasing too, the ratio public debt to gdp has been decreasing but not that much.

We are witnessing a wave of left wing populism, I will vote for a new party, the Liberal Initiative, which is a Classical Liberal movement, we need new parties and new fresh faces in the parliament, above all we need new centre right and right wing parties with more and more seats, the two traditional right to centre parties (which would be hardly right wing in the US by the way) are shitty and can't oppose the actual government.

Socialism always works for a while, I will expect new election in between these ones now (October 2019) and the projected ones in 2023, at best between 2023 and 2027.