tsne plot of modern Europeans with medieval samples and users

[vbnetkhio]

I would wait with definite conclusions for more samples.

Look how many gaps this map of ancient Balkan DNA has:
(the map shows all good samples younger than 2000 BC)

There is one Iron Age sample from Bulgaria and that's it:
(light green dots are Bronze Age samples 2000-1000 BC)

they all plot together nicely though

those Croatian and Moldovan samples are similar to northwest Italians. the Bulgarian to central Italians and Mycenaeans to Sicilians.
and there's a Thraco-Cimmerian from Moldova which plots like north Greeks/Albanians and Daco-Scythian from Moldova which plots like Croats, for an obvious reason.

i'll be surprised if something out of this line is discovered

[WeirdLookingFellow]

G25 is a very competent tool, that despite its limitation due to few samples, can actually point as to where the particular admixes come from. I have meddled with it quite a bit tho I am absolutely not Davidski and have attempted to isolate specific admixes in myself and other people, also averages. Albanians have rather clear Slavic admix and the "it comes from Steppe people that came here earlier than that" does not fit reality, at least not entirely. Yamnaya_RUS_Samara is also used by Davidski when he sends you the results. I actually wondered why since based on some studies I've read the Yamnaya were not really pure Steppe. It seems, actually, that this sample is. I am not contesting that the possibility of an earlier Steppe admix is impossible, since Romanians clearly have it from their vicinity with Scythians. Also it is known that some Scythian samples that we have were probably actually Dacian+Celtic or just Dacian/Thracian, therefore mixing clearly exists (not to mention that historical records do state that the two peoples mixed).






0 pen

[Peterski]

i'll be surprised if something out of this line is discovered

It already was. This guy from Bulgaria was out of this line:
(and it is one of very few samples younger than 2000 BC)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...garian-R1a-Z93



^^^
Eurogenes K15 PCA:

Abscisse (x-axis): 534 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 144 pixel

[vbnetkhio]

It already was. This guy from Bulgaria was out of this line:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...garian-R1a-Z93



^^^
Eurogenes K15 PCA:

Abscisse (x-axis): 534 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 144 pixel

it's a bit older than those samples i mentioned. this could be an early indo european immigrant, not yet fully mixed with the locals?

[Peterski]

^^^
Some of Mycenaean samples are just as old (up to 1700 BC).

[Jana]

That sample is not very relevant for genetic make-up of modern Balkanites. Bulgarians can't be modeled using that and Slavic samples, they can be only modeled using Iron Age Thracians.
His haplogroup shows how much he contributed to Bulgarians, basically zero as it is extremely uncommon today.

My verdict= Bulgaria BA was proto-Thracian, Bulgaria IA = classic Thracian

[Jana]

So far there is only one such sample from Bulgaria, but people argued that it did not have to be an ethnic Thracian:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...Age-Balkan-DNA

Some users claimed she could be Greek.

Unlikely. People can and always will claim whatever they want.

In 400-500 B.C., the main inhabitants of Bulgaria were definitely Thracians. Greeks only lived on settlements along the Black Sea coast rather than interior Thrace. The chances of it being a non-Thracian are very low.

[Jana]

Oh yea, more weirdness from some Albos

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ric-Alps/page3

Some Albanian users claim these Croats easily pass as Kosova Albanians, even in groups. And they are genetically mostly Slavic with large Balkan admixture.
Interesting how Croats fit in Kosovo so well but they are by blood mostly Slavs No Slav blood in Albanians, we are 100% pure illyrians!!!

While it is clear these Croats don't look Belarusian or Ukrainian, they don't look ''Illyrian'' either as it would be impossible considering their genetic make-up. They look mixed Slavo-Vlachs.
What people can ''Balkan look'' is just a mixed look of various traits including native, Slavic, etc.

It's like some ''pure'' Amerindian claims mestizos look just like his people, but at same time screams how he has no Iberian blood.

[MagnusDark]

What we don't know is how much Roman conquest impacted Balkans genetically. In Iberia it was huge effect.
Romans were extremely southern genetically.

If it was big, that Slavic impact is most likely in those figures because it would shift those population back to where they were before Roman admixture
As far as I know your language has lot of Latin origin words.

There is Roman sample on G25, ITA-Collegno MA-o1 so you can try it out.
Croats look to have Roman admixture and that is not suprising because Illyrians in Dalmatia/Panonnia were Romanised.

Whose LARPing other than most of your ilk? For the most part I know you’re even keel. Yet, I have seen you say several times Medish phenotypes and cromagnid types are subhuman compared to North Pontid/Pontid types.

You have said some pretty irrational things bordering racism about people that don’t fit your racial preferences.

My haplotype isn’t found in slavs. Whilst it most likely arrived with proto slavs on earliest contact we still know nothing. Where’s the ancientDNA?

You speak definitively when we don’t even have proto slavic samples(so much so people can’t agree on what samples to use as a proxy). Also we barely have illyrian or thracian samples. As I already mentioned. No Ancient Macedonian, no ancient Epirote or ancient south Illyrian dna to make any conclusive statements.

You said we are all roman admixed. Hey you’re ignoring most of those roman samples were likely romanized balkan people. Already said we still don’t have Rome proper samples. Only balkan Romans and barbarian admixed Romans.

Mytrueancestry says Spaniard and north Italians are illyrian like. If you take such a silly thing seriously rather than seeing it’s probably just similar admixture/drift, then you can misconstrue the truth.

You took a fun calculator from Dorkymon that only uses a short limited population algorithm as gospel truth. You also ignored all the other calculator results I posted but fine you do you. Everyone apparently acts like they have their PHD in genetics.

[MagnusDark]

.....

No one denies Slavic admixture in Albanians. None of that was even said in any of my posts. I clearly stated they had an undeniable impact. However, the idea ALL steppe related admixture in Albanians is FROM Slavs is highly false. Albanians like Greeks and everyone else received various waves of steppe migrations that increases the admixture level over time. The problem here is Feichy seems to assume ALL of that steppe admixture is strictly from the Slavs. Many ancients came out Baltic or slavic “like”. Illyrians and Thracians already had some Rus_Samara. See below several G25 runs using my coordinated. I guess I can LARP now because apparently I’m a bit of everything. Some ancients for comparison to.

Also, I think Pererski mentioned(correct me if I’m wrong dude) that not all EEF in Slavs May be from the migration. They could have likely already had some EEF to begin with and probably weren’t fully steppe either.


I wouldn’t take calculators all too literally. They can say a lot as you can see here. My father and I drift closer than the average albanian to UKR_CimmerianMJ12. I doubt it’s because I have any actual Dacian or thracian ancestry and is like just similar admixture levels causing drift.

All steppe admixture can’t be just from the Slavs in Albanians. Such a claim required Post migration scenarios. It’s undeniable Albanians are mostly Paleo-Balkan, so their steppe admixture has various sources including slavic.
pen=0

"distance%=3.035"

MagnusDark_scaled

Balkans_IA,79.6
Baltic_IA,9.6
England_IA,8.8
Pakistan_Butkara_IA,1.4
Turkmenistan_IA,0.6

"distance%=3.4328"


MagnusDark_scaled


ILLYRII,48.8
GRAECI,26.2
ITALI,25

Fit - 3.387
Greek-Albanian - 98.33
Iberian - 0.83
Sicilian-Maltese - 0.83

"distance%=1.8822"

MagnusDark(as you can see, adding other steppe admixed population, the algorithm selects the closest match)

GRECO-ROMAN,45
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN,40
IBERIAN,8.8
SLAVIC,4
BALTIC,1.6
VIKING-EAST,0.6

MagnusDark_”fit": 3.2012,
"MACEDONIAN-THRACIAN": 45,
"ILLYRIAN": 29.17,
"GREEK": 13.33,
"PANNONIAN": 6.67,
"PONTIC-BALTIC": 3.33,
"NORTHWESTERN-IRANIAN": 1.67,
"BALTIC": 0.83

"closestDistances": [
"MACEDONIAN-THRACIAN:undefined: 3.780329",
"ILLYRIAN:undefined: 4.102382",
"GREEK:undefined: 6.569086",
"PANNONIAN:undefined: 7.513800",
"CELTIC-SOUTHEAST:undefined: 9.883884",
"IBERIAN:undefined: 10.058478",
"PONTIC-CAUCASIAN:undefined: 10.678822",

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 1.8227% / 0.01822686
Aggregated
44.8 Hellenes
18.4 Getae
17.0 Baltics
16.2 Goths
2.0 Thracians
1.6 Slavs

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 2.2811% / 0.02281091
Aggregated
44.4 Pre-Slavic_Greek_World
31.8 SlavicMigration
23.8 Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World

Some ancient g25 runs Plus mine:


Minoan (Lassithi)
Distance: 2.1814%
86.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
13.0 - CHG
0.4 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Thracian
Distance: 2.5591%
72.4 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
24.2 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 - CHG

Mycenaean
Distance: 2.2264%
75.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
13.0 - CHG
11.4 - Yamnaya_RUS Samara

Early Bronze Age Croatian
Distance: 2.9443%
59.0 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
31.2 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 - CHG
4.6 - WHG

MagnusDark_Distance: 3.0487%
63.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
32.8 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8 - CHG
1.8 - WHG


Average Albanian
Distance: 2.6002%
59.8 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
35.6 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.6 - CHG
2.0 WHG