tsne plot of modern Europeans with medieval samples and users

[vbnetkhio]

Mytrueancestry says Spaniard and north Italians are illyrian like. If you take such a silly thing seriously rather than seeing it’s probably just similar admixture/drift, then you can misconstrue the truth.

they just had a similar whg/neolithic farmer/indoeuropean ratio as Iberians and Northwest Italians. and those samples are some proto-Delmatians, not Illyrians. Illyrians was originally used for tribes living more south, they might have been autosomally differrent.

maybe there was some actual Iberian genetics spreading into Central Europe and Balkans with the Bell beaker or Celtic migrations? if any of those groups even originated in Iberia. but that's not how to interpret mytrueancestry results. they just use the simple eurogenes k15 calculator.

[MagnusDark]

they just had a similar whg/neolithic farmer/indoeuropean ratio as Iberians and Northwest Italians. and those samples are some proto-Delmatians, not Illyrians. Illyrians was originally used for tribes living more south, they might have been autosomally differrent.

maybe there was some actual Iberian genetics spreading into Central Europe and Balkans with the Bell beaker or Celtic migrations? if any of those groups even originated in Iberia. but that's not how to interpret mytrueancestry results. they just use the simple eurogenes k15 calculator.

Of course. Yet, people are taking things as gospel truth without any due diligence. As for the Proto Dalmatia, I understand he was officially classified as Proto Illyrian. His YDNA for instance was J2b-L283 which is most prevelant in Albanians/West Balkans.

[MagnusDark]

G25 proves all of us have some Slavic ancestry and it's a coincidence that we carry the haplogroups and you don't, does that make sense? Albanians should look for truth even if they don't like it.
I agree though that 30% seems a bit too much, it's assuming we were like Sicilians or southern Greeks originally. I think we need more ancient samples.

Edit: also I am genuinely not trolling, I don't do that kind of stuff, this has interested me since a long time and I wanted to find out why we cluster the way we do
I have a right to question this. I'm sure if all Albanians clustered north of you we wouldn't hear the end of it either.

When have I said anything about how you or other Albanians cluster?

I can tell you have a genuine interest. Great. Just don’t be so gullible. No Albanian denies slavic admixture save a few. That would make zero sense given the historical dynamics at play for near 2 millennia.

The problem here is making broad generalizations such as all steppe admixture in Albanians are from Slavs. In order for something so nonsensical to be true, Albanians would have to have migrated in the early Middle Ages as well. That’s simply not the case.

Albanians are proven paleo Balkan mostly by Ydna by this point. They likely received waves of steppe admixture, concluding with the Slavic migrations that added additional admixture shifting us north and east. If you look at the G25 runs I provided one page 19 you will see the average illyrian and thracian is not far off from from the Albanian average where steppe admixture is concerned. With the Albanian average having a little bit more.

There were a number of tribes carrying steppe like admixture at various intervals not just Slavs. Have you taken a full Mtdna test to even know how far back you match with slavs in your line? It was found in a lot of ancient samples and not specific to slavs. Best to do a full sequence test to see the distances between you and slavic people in your branch.

Which brings me to the discussion of Y-DNA. We only have a little over 800 samples in our project. Of those, R1a/I2a ‘makes up between 15-30 percent in Albania proper and less than 10 percent in Kosova. Most of the R1a/I2a in our project is low resolution. Some are just classified as M417 due to low reads, no calls and potentially because they form new haplotypes that only deep testing reveals.

For fudge sake my Ydna clade was falsely predicted in basic STR level that only a deep bigY test was able to remedy.

You can’t make conclusive statements with low resolution testing. It’s not evidence. It’s guess work.

Also, some I1 which is typically classified as “Germanic” is clustering distantly with Slavs(for those who have done BigY). So, likely I1 and other minimal lineages were also part of the Slavic migrations into the balkans. Of the high resolution tests for R1a so far are my haplotype which is strictly found in Albanians with our ancestor living 1200ybp. It even have sub clusters forming in Tosks. There’s a 800-900 years gap with slavs in this haplo going back with Slavic, German, Scandinavian, Kavkazians, Finnish matches between 2000-2300ybp. We can guess certain scenarios. But until the lineage is more fleshed out in this gap of time, nothing can be said with certainty, other than the lineage expanded from Central & Central East Europe sometime in the late Iron Age and early Middle Ages. Just 7!years ago people were ignorantly calling I2a1b-Din Illyrian and E-V13 North African. Data is constantly growing and puzzle pieces coming together.

Another Albanian cluster also in L1029 coming from 2 bigY Tosks in areas even raided by Goths. We also have some Z280 clusters with potential albanian haplotypes. For instance one Albanian belongs to a basal clade with no slavic matches closer than 2400ybp(400BC).

I2a remains without deep tests in Albanians yet most are suspected to be shared with Bulgarians and Romanians. For all we know an Albanian May also pop up in the rare Greek cluster of I2-Y3120 or even forming a Albanian haplotype.

The Middle Ages were highly chaotic. Cross assimilation to and fro. Slavs weren’t the only barbarians spilling out from the Danube into all directions of the balkans. Modern human social constructs are only 300 years old and didn’t even exist back then. Some Slavs even welcomed assimilation and helped supply byzantines against their other warlike kin.

It’s important to examine things on a case by case basis. Broad generalizations are only for laymen or people who know better and have an agenda.

They can tell what lineages expanded with whom from deep testing. Regardless if it Came originally with a German, Slav, Turkic or whatever. This is why deep Y testing is so important. There’s even Slavic clusters of E-V13.

We have no ancient slavic dna pre-migration or even migration slavs from the Balkans. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. So much so there’s not an agreement on what samples we do have are best Proxy for slavs. Some samples work for one groups of slavs over another. They are not homogeneous by any stretch.

I already made one example. My cousin married a Finnish woman. Kids half Finnish and half Albanian. They come out as Montenegrin in calculators. Shall we assume this is a Slavic admixed albanian whose actually Montenegrin? No.

You have to understand calculators are one of many tools in understanding moving ancestries. The most advantageous which sadly has only been for studies and not much commercial use is IBD sharing.

So while X29X or whatever was being haughty in his approach, he is correct that IBD is far more reliable in determining related ancestry within recent historical time frames.

Keep a skeptical and fresh mind. Be careful. Half these people have not even an amateur understanding of genetics and are LARPing like they have PHDs in this stuff.

[Jana]

The problem here is making broad generalizations such as all steppe admixture in Albanians are from Slavs.

Nobody ever mentioned something as idiotic as that, you just made it up.

[Jana]

Whose LARPing other than most of your ilk? For the most part I know you’re even keel. Yet, I have seen you say several times Medish phenotypes and cromagnid types are subhuman compared to North Pontid/Pontid types.

Nope, I have never said that. You are again lying. Or you can post quotes where I said that.

You said we are all roman admixed. Hey you’re ignoring most of those roman samples were likely romanized balkan people. Already said we still don’t have Rome proper samples. Only balkan Romans and barbarian admixed Romans.

No, I never said that. It is my guess based on Roman genetic admixture in Iberians which was recently discovered to be far greater than believed.
And yes we have Roman samples, I posted it's name. It is the best thing available until now and new ones from upcoming Roman paper which is to be released will be South Italian and Greek Islander like, based on descriptions from the leaked texts.

[Jana]

Mytrueancestry says Spaniard and north Italians are illyrian like. If you take such a silly thing seriously rather than seeing it’s probably just similar admixture/drift, then you can misconstrue the truth.

Are you serious ? I don't care for that trashy website and I wrote North Italians have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians except artificial genetic similarity.

You took a fun calculator from Dorkymon that only uses a short limited population algorithm as gospel truth. You also ignored all the other calculator results I posted but fine you do you. Everyone apparently acts like they have their PHD in genetics.

No, I did not. Again don't put the words in my mouth that I never said. I said such calculator is not the best and shouldn't be taken literally. It is especially bad for western Balkans.
What I said is that it's good enough to give a rough idea about percentage of Slavic input into various Balkan people.

[MagnusDark]

Nobody ever mentioned something as idiotic as that, you just made it up.

That’s why you posted dorkymon K4 to illustrate your point of how “Slavic” we are and thumbed down my post with all the G25 runs showing steppe levels haven’t changed much in Albanians from the ancients? Don’t like when the evidence doesn’t support your guesswork?

Everyone acts like a genetic scientist. I’m not saying the other Albanian approached the discussion without frustration and I’m not responsible for his comments to you. but I can completely understand his frustration. . He’s not wrong about IBD sharing being more accurate.

Also my statements of LARPing was general. For the most part I know you don’t deny albanians descend from Illyrians.

However with regards to racist comments in the past. You were arguing with other Balkan folk. Maybe it was mentioned in defense of Stears. Understandable then.

Regardless you did call Cromagnid types subhuman. I don’t have time to go through all your posts and find it. Other users can chime in there.

I never disrespected you. I disagreed with you. Difference. But I won’t accept lies against my own people’s either.

Slavic admixture is only one part of steppe input into Albanians. Undeniable. Never said otherwise.

Your jest at me regarding my Ydna is also in ignorance. The average user in these forums are not exactly well equipped with knowledge in haplogroups or deep testing for that matter. You called Dick for instance a German and said his haplogroup is not Slavic. That illustrates you don’t know much as his specific haplotype undeniably arrived with Slavs and even appears in some Albanians.

No one has ancient Proto Slavic dna to know what lineages were more common. There’s slavic clades in many minimal haplogroups for all we know we’re at one time more prevalent.

You and Ylla claimed I2/R1a in Albanians is all from Slavs. Whilst most surely will be, there is absolutely no way to know without deep resolution testing which is already turning up surprises. A few Albanian haplotypes sharing connection to slavs no later 1200-2100 years are already popping up.

Just like the unique Greek branch of I2a1b that is devoid of most slavs, we are discovering similar among other groups Albanians included. Scandinavian Z284 is also found in a couple Albanians in Montenegro.

Ethnic affiliation and nationalism are more modern social constructs that did not exist in the early Middle Ages and earlier.

This upcoming study will shed a lot of light on the situation of these lineages. A monumental study the first of its kind. People won’t be able to create wild baseless theories anymore as this will be a monumental undertaking spanning 400-900CE.


https://www.shh.mpg.de/1514048/histo...-synergy-grant

Also yet to test Tolense finds of 2000 warriors which will tells us much more in the Bronze Age.

90% of the arguments thrown around here are completely baseless.

[Jana]

That’s why you posted dorkymon K4 to illustrate your point of how “Slavic” we are and thumbed down my post with all the G25 runs showing steppe levels haven’t changed much in Albanians from the ancients? Don’t like when the evidence doesn’t support your guesswork?

I thumbed you down because of this (innacurate):

The problem here is Feichy seems to assume ALL of that steppe admixture is strictly from the Slavs.

My parents are mostly CM both. I think they are subhuman ?
I just said Borreby is generally ugly phenotype for me. That not racist. It's just opinion every person has differently.

And CM phenotypes peak in Northern Europe not Balkans/South. Borreby peaks in Denmark.

[Ylla]

What we don't know is how much Roman conquest impacted Balkans genetically. In Iberia it was huge effect.
Romans were extremely southern genetically.

If it was big, that Slavic impact is most likely in those figures because it would shift those population back to where they were before Roman admixture
As far as I know your language has lot of Latin origin words.

There is Roman sample on G25, ITA-Collegno MA-o1 so you can try it out.
Croats look to have Roman admixture and that is not suprising because Illyrians in Dalmatia/Panonnia were Romanised.

If Romans were really southern genetically than that means more southern * doesn't * always equal more native Balkan. But rather more Roman and Latin input?
Maybe those kosovars have less of this and more native thraco Illyrian Balkan. I can see now how the algorithm works
Btw I don't think albanians have anything against Slavic ancestry, nobody here does, I've seen similar denial of germanic admixtures actually
I don't care much about pure Albanian or whatever it just makes me question my mother's ancestry especially because I'm not sure of where her family came from originally.

[Jana]

If Romans were really southern genetically than that means more southern * doesn't * always equal more native Balkan. But rather more Roman and Latin input?
Maybe those kosovars have less of this and more native thraco Illyrian Balkan. I can see now how the algorithm works
Btw I don't think albanians have anything against Slavic ancestry, nobody here does, I've seen similar denial of germanic admixtures actually
I don't care much about pure Albanian or whatever it just makes me question my mother's ancestry especially because I'm not sure of where her family came from originally.

Yes, more southern does not equal more native neither more northern does equal more slavic. It depends how well you match particular samples (and G25 is great in that because fit automatically lowers when you select samples closer to your DNA).