Vlachs East Balkan in Origiin?

[Xz2k9]

Except for pre-Slavic Dalmatian, a lot of Vlachs or Latin Speakers of West Balkans that now live in Greece, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia , Albania seem to actually have East Balkan origin from Romania/Bulgaria.

Interesting since a Macedonian member here mentioned they share common Y-DNA with Bulgarians / Macedonians rather than Albanians/Greeks. Though some of the ones in Albania seem to show Y-DNA similarities with Albanians.

pre-Slavic Dalmatian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language .... Which was different from neighboring Istro-Romanian, the last one seem to of come from more East possibly ?

Lots of Vlachs seem to of migrated into the West Balkans with the Bulgarian Empire or during raids etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megleno-Romanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians


Morlachs aka Vlachs that live in Hercegovina were said to be Illyrians though their language apparently showed similarities with Romanian like other Vlachs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians

Thunnman believed most Vlachs to be of Thracian origin and Albanian as Illyrian:


''I would now like to turn to the actual history of the Albanians and of the country they inhabit. They are the descendents of the ancient Illyrians, whereas their neighbours, the Vlachs, whose ancient history I will deal with later, are the children of the Thracians. I will try to prove these statements as best I can.''


http://www.albanianhistory.net/1774_Thunmann/index.html

Overall Latin speakers of the Balkans show similarities with Albanians in language , this could be due to mutually intelligible Paleo-Balkan languages possibly. Some Vlachs also maybe made their way into Albania and fused into a Proto-Albanian or Illyrian population that already lived there. Both in the North in Montenegro / North Albania and in the South.


Some Albanian Y-DNA's rather show a West Balkan origin. These ones found in Croatia seem to be brother clades of the ones found in Albanians. There is also some subclade of J2b2-L283 that is found in Some Croats and Montenigrins that seem to be the brother clade of the Albanian clades basically. Again putting forth a West Balkan origin for this J2b2-L283.





So Native Latin Speakers in West Balkan should of belonged to the same same clades .....


There have been some migrations of Albanians from Albania and into Romania/Bulgaria also. During Bulgarian Empire and later on. As there have been Albanian villages found in those areas.


It would be interesting to do more Y-DNA studies on the Romanians and even Vlachs over all.





Aromanians were recorded as Dacians/Thracians by some early authors that migrated from the East Balkans into the West Balkans.


Vlachs in Serbia:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_of_Serbia



Possible migration route of Vlachs:










It seems that Thracians and Illyrians were possibly mutually intelligible languages and in many areas they were genetically or autosomally similar people and even mingled.


Some Thracian samples found turned basically out to be like modern Tuscans/Albanians.


Overall, Vlachs and other Latin speakers of the Balkans, show kinship with Albanians than any other Balkan people from being ancient neighbors and possibly similar people at one point.


The kinship with other Balkan people is mostly due to heavy assimilation while with the Albanians it is something ancient.



It's possible the Vlachs were neighbors of the Albanians around Kosovo / Macedonia / Southern Serbia and Western Bulgaria area where the Vlachs lived on the Eastern side and the Albanians on the Western side.


This isn't to rule out other Latin speakers that would of been of Illyrian origin such as the Dalmatian one .... only other Illyrian areas ....


It's possible Proto-Albanians were both Latin and Albanian speakers. Other then the Vlachs of today there must of also been Latin Speakers in Illyrian lands but of Illyrian origin rather than Thracian.

[ixulescu]

Vlachs are not one single population, and never were. They are the descendants of the many ancient Balkanic tribes that were Latinized.

They used to be closer in the past simply because the entire northern half of the Balkans spoke Latin 1500 years ago. Nonetheless, they had different origins - a Latinized Illyrian was not the same as a Latinized Dacian.

[Dna8]

I think they might be described as Romano Byzantine in origin.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Interesting, so Y-DNA shows different lineages split between Albanians and the extension of Illyrians up to Serbia and Thracians which were known to be present more near the Black Sea.

I wonder why they didn't mix more if they were similar, or why did they not work together against common enemies.

[vbnetkhio]

..

yes, Romanians, Aromanians, Istroromanians, Meglenoromanians are closely related, by language at least. There were other unrelated Balkanian Romance groups, like the Dalmatians you mentioned, but they got assimilated.

[Pribislav]

Except for pre-Slavic Dalmatian, a lot of Vlachs or Latin Speakers of West Balkans that now live in Greece, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia , Albania seem to actually have East Balkan origin from Romania/Bulgaria.

Interesting since a Macedonian member here mentioned they share common Y-DNA with Bulgarians / Macedonians rather than Albanians/Greeks. Though some of the ones in Albania seem to show Y-DNA similarities with Albanians.

pre-Slavic Dalmatian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language .... Which was different from neighboring Istro-Romanian, the last one seem to of come from more East possibly ?

Lots of Vlachs seem to of migrated into the West Balkans with the Bulgarian Empire or during raids etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megleno-Romanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians


Morlachs aka Vlachs that live in Hercegovina were said to be Illyrians though their language apparently showed similarities with Romanian like other Vlachs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians

Thunnman believed most Vlachs to be of Thracian origin and Albanian as Illyrian:


''I would now like to turn to the actual history of the Albanians and of the country they inhabit. They are the descendents of the ancient Illyrians, whereas their neighbours, the Vlachs, whose ancient history I will deal with later, are the children of the Thracians. I will try to prove these statements as best I can.''


http://www.albanianhistory.net/1774_Thunmann/index.html

Overall Latin speakers of the Balkans show similarities with Albanians in language , this could be due to mutually intelligible Paleo-Balkan languages possibly. Some Vlachs also maybe made their way into Albania and fused into a Proto-Albanian or Illyrian population that already lived there. Both in the North in Montenegro / North Albania and in the South.


Some Albanian Y-DNA's rather show a West Balkan origin. These ones found in Croatia seem to be brother clades of the ones found in Albanians. There is also some subclade of J2b2-L283 that is found in Some Croats and Montenigrins that seem to be the brother clade of the Albanian clades basically. Again putting forth a West Balkan origin for this J2b2-L283.





So Native Latin Speakers in West Balkan should of belonged to the same same clades .....


There have been some migrations of Albanians from Albania and into Romania/Bulgaria also. During Bulgarian Empire and later on. As there have been Albanian villages found in those areas.


It would be interesting to do more Y-DNA studies on the Romanians and even Vlachs over all.





Aromanians were recorded as Dacians/Thracians by some early authors that migrated from the East Balkans into the West Balkans.


Vlachs in Serbia:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_of_Serbia



Possible migration route of Vlachs:










It seems that Thracians and Illyrians were possibly mutually intelligible languages and in many areas they were genetically or autosomally similar people and even mingled.


Some Thracian samples found turned basically out to be like modern Tuscans/Albanians.


Overall, Vlachs and other Latin speakers of the Balkans, show kinship with Albanians than any other Balkan people from being ancient neighbors and possibly similar people at one point.


The kinship with other Balkan people is mostly due to heavy assimilation while with the Albanians it is something ancient.



It's possible the Vlachs were neighbors of the Albanians around Kosovo / Macedonia / Southern Serbia and Western Bulgaria area where the Vlachs lived on the Eastern side and the Albanians on the Western side.


This isn't to rule out other Latin speakers that would of been of Illyrian origin such as the Dalmatian one .... only other Illyrian areas ....


It's possible Proto-Albanians were both Latin and Albanian speakers. Other then the Vlachs of today there must of also been Latin Speakers in Illyrian lands but of Illyrian origin rather than Thracian.

Isto-Romanians or Ćići are descedants of Latin speaking Vlach shepereds from central or eastern Balkan who arrived in 14th century in Dalmatian hinterland, in the second half of 15th century they moved in Lika near Velebit mountain, and early 16th century they settled in Istria.
Istro-Romanian belong to East Romance languages, like Romanian, Aromanian and Meglenitic. On the other hand Istriot and Dalmatian language belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages. Istriot and Dalmatian speakers were romanized natives, Isto-Romanians came from the east as I said.

Morlachs was Venetian term for Serbs and Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland, there was no any Latin speaking Morlachs as unique ethnic group. My ancestors moved to Dalmatian hinterland from western Bosnia in late 17th century. Uskoks who were sented by Venetians to help my ancestors in migration are mentioned also as Morlachs. Few years after my ancestors settled in Dalmatia Venetians started to call them Morlachs. Morlachs are invented in the heads of Venetian officials.

[Jana]

Isto-Romanians or Ćići are descedants of Latin speaking Vlachs shepered from central or eastern Balkan who arrived in 14th century in Dalmatian hinterland, in the second half of 15th century they moved in Lika near Velebit mountain, and early 16th century they settled in Istria.

Why are yure repeating this innacuracy? Istro-Romanians arrived from Transylvania, not from Balkans, and their language is closest to arhaic dialect of Transylvanian Romanian.
They are Romanians, nothing do do with Balkan Vlachs/Aromanians.

[vbnetkhio]

Balkan Vlachs/Aromanians.

they also originate from Romania.

[vbnetkhio]

Isto-Romanians or Ćići are descedants of Latin speaking Vlach shepereds from central or eastern Balkan who arrived in 14th century in Dalmatian hinterland, in the second half of 15th century they moved in Lika near Velebit mountain, and early 16th century they settled in Istria.
Istro-Romanian belong to East Romance languages, like Romanian, Aromanian and Meglenitic. On the other hand Istriot and Dalmatian language belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages. Istriot and Dalmatian speakers were romanized natives, Isto-Romanians came from the east as I said.

Morlachs was Venetian term for Serbs and Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland, there was no any Latin speaking Morlachs as unique ethnic group. My ancestors moved to Dalmatian hinterland from western Bosnia in late 17th century. Uskoks who were sented by Venetians to help my ancestors in migration are mentioned also as Morlachs. Few years after my ancestors settled in Dalmatia Venetians started to call them Morlachs. Morlachs are invented in the heads of Venetian officials.

this is what "morlaco" means in Spanish(google translate)

Noun
1
Bull fighting, especially the large one.
two morlacos lagged behind and created some dangerous situations.
2
Money in general, especially paper money bills.
He reached into his pocket and took out the few remaining morlacos.

Adjective
1
[person] Pretend nonsense or ignorance.

[Pribislav]

Why are yure repeating this innacuracy? Istro-Romanians arrived from Transylvania, not from Balkans, and their language is closest to arhaic dialect of Transylvanian Romanian.
They are Romanians, nothing do do with Balkan Vlachs/Aromanians.

It's not much important are they from central/eastern Balkan or Transylvania, point is that they came from east and they are not natives of Adriatic coast as Dalmatian and Istriot speakers.
Ancestors of Isto-Romanians are recorded in Dalmatian hinterland in 14th century, how much years was enough to them to arrived from Transylvania to Dalmatia? Let's say they arrived from Transylvania in 13th or 14th century, but according to Stears there was no Vlachs in Transylvania in that time.