XP's Europe-wide pigmentation study

[Peterski]

Percent of autochthons (= same region of residence in 1939 and in 1950) among population:

(note that people who moved from neighbouring / very similar regions are still not included)

V. stands for voivodeship

Kielce V. - 95,9%
Białystok V. - 94,7%
Cracow V. - 92,7%
Rzeszów V. - 92,7%
Łódź V. - 92,3%
Lublin V. - 92,1%
Katowice V. [pre-war Polish part] - 89,5%
Poznań V. - 89,4%
Warsaw V. - 89,4%
Bydgoszcz V. - 87,2%
Olsztyn V. [pre-war Polish part*] - 86,0%
City Warsaw - 75,8%
City Łódź - 64,6%
Gdańsk V. - 53,1% [in pre-war Polish part: 87,2%]

*Small areas mostly around Działdowo.

=====

Katowice [pre-war German part] - 61,0%*
Opole V. - 54,0%
Olsztyn V. [pre-war German part] - 18,5%**
Koszalin V. - 8,6%
Wrocław V. - 5,0%
Lubuskie V. - 2,8%
Szczecin V. - 2,7%

*Doesn't include 51,562 people who moved in from pre-war Polish part of Katowice V. [East Upper Silesia].
**Does not include the number of 15,403 people who moved there from pre-war Polish part of Olsztyn V.

=====

And here is detailed breakdown for Bydgoszcz V.:

Total population - 1,451,050 - including

Bydgoszcz V. (= autochthons) - 1,265,664 (87,22%)

Poles from abroad:

From the USSR - 67,731 (4,67%)
From Germany - 1,548 (0,11%)
From France - 1,072 (0,07%)
Abroad, others - 726 (0,05%)

From nearby Poznań V.:

Poznan V. - 17,509 (1,21%)

From nearby Gdańsk V.:

Gdansk V. - 11,048 (0,76%)

From other regions:

Warsaw V. - 14,901 (1,03%)
Kielce V. - 12,629 (0,87%)
City Warsaw - 10,350 (0,71%)
Lublin V. - 9,399 (0,65%)
Cracow V. - 7,297 (0,50%)
Łódź V. - 6,489 (0,45%) -------> this I suppose includes Lukasz's family [Łódź > Toruń migrants?]
Rzeszów V. - 6,321 (0,44%)
Olsztyn V. - 3,691 (0,25%)
Białystok V. - 2,310 (0,16%)
Katowice V. - 2,274 (0,16%)
City Łódź - 1,477 (0,10%)
West Pomerania - 380 (0,03%)
Opole V. - 133 (0,01%)
Wrocław V. - 124 (0,01%)
Lubuskie V. - 51 (0,00%)

Origin unknown / not established - 7,926 (0,55%)

[Septentrion]

There is darker finns aswell in the north, i matched a girl from the border between Finland and Sweden, shes quite dark

100% european
82% finnish
13% swedish

Yes, she’s darker than the average Finnish, but looks less «Uralic».

[XenophobicPrussian]

Ah,and yes albanians are darker than Greeks in all metrics,sorter,and less European. They are in few words the fregs of the European race.

Στάλθηκε από το SM-A600FN μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

That's all I needed to know about you, thanks. I tried to be nice and ignore my Greek shitlist boycott one time, all I got was a headache, shame.

Spoiler!

Parson survey results on prisoners of war is interesting but the number was small (ca2000).


Of course there are Polish data in Prussian statistics. Actually there was no difference of pigmentation between Polish and German speaking neighbouring counties. The strongest difference was in Poznan city. While only 33% Polish it was the darkest in whole province.


co to share



Frankly speaking i would rather really on professional statistics and surveys.

Alekseev



Kiszely


Schwidetzky

minecraft stwórz serwer

Lundman

Beals R. L., Hoijer H.



Kroeber A.


Ripley

Coon

There is no such thing as a "professional study". It's looking at people's hair colour for heaven's sake, this isn't something that needs a university degree. If anything, based on the sole fact that my numbers are based on multiple pics for determining light hair, rather than just one look(because lighting, sun bleaching ability, etc are important factors), done by different usually military recruiters or doctors rather than one person(if not different anthropologists and definitions altogether), alone makes this study more professional than any oldschool anthropology study. Even though I disagree with some of his results, same with The Blade's study. More effort and professionalism has gone into these than any other.

You are certainly nothing close to a "professional", because you post maps of light eye colour or light eyes+hair, when the topic is only light hair. Firstly, all those maps are irrelevant because they don't even have the total percents for the whole population, only broad categories that are within 20% percent of eachother. Infact I would say Poland is probably slightly lighter eyed than Germany(although I've seen plenty of studies that disagree with this) and Lithuania is definitely significantly more lighter eyed than Germany. Light eyes and light hair don't correlate the best in northern Europe, especially in the case of the British Isles, who are definitely lighter eyed than Germans, way more lighter eyed than Austrians/Swiss, but also definitely not lighter haired.

You probably don't want to quote Lundman, as he had Pomeranians, Prussians, Holstein, etc lighter haired than Latvia and Lithuania. Beals&Hoijer automatically thrown in the trash bin because Scotland/N. England as light as Scandinavia, Bosnia/Croatia/Georgia lighter than Wales/SW England.

I will say, the original numbers you posted are the best evidence anyone on this thread has ever posted, so I applaud you for it even though you probably don't even realize how good that evidence is compared to the other useless info you posted. Can you confirm, with proof, that those numbers are from the same study, done by the same anthropologist who did the German numbers? Also, if you could confirm the original German numbers you posted were for Germans only or all people in the region, because the author was only talking about Germans and in a German context on that page so I'd like to be sure.

As decent as the evidence is, there's still problems with it. If the light hair numbers are from 1912, using Polish population % numbers from 1867 is extremely problematic. Even from Peterski's numbers from his recent post, Poznan was more Polish than Krakow was Polish in 1914. The Prussian 1905 census had Posen city proper as 45% German, 55% Polish. Cities are always darker than the country side, as well. Miedzyrecz and Buk, the most German ones outside of Posen, are the lightest in terms of total light hair, despite there being blonder regions than Miedzyrecz. You also then have questions of, did Posen Germans come more from Pomerania/Prussias, Brandenburg, or Silesia, while Posen Poles are pretty much the most northernly Poles outside of Lithuanian Poles(much smaller numbers) and probably the blondest outside of Kashubians and maybe Lithuanian Poles(would doubt that personally though, but of course we're just supposed to believe old maps that say different things every time instead of looking at Lithuanians yourself).

The only way this will be ever solved is by modern studies, not old studies that all said different things. Start counting Polack and German hair colour if you really want to know the truth. In the time it takes you to look up all these studies you could do it, my samples are right in the OP, or use your own samples and make your own study and I'll check it.

Nope, it was in a completely different context - it was about how Germans from Mecklenburg plot autosomally.

You just did not understand that I was using samples with all 4 grandparents born in Mecklenburg before 1945.

I said you were wrong when you did not understand that my Mecklenburg average is based on native Mecklenburgians, and does not include post-war refugees from further east.



You said that West Germans have no Slavic admixture today, I said you were wrong because they received a lot of Eastern Germans post-1945.

And I did not talk only about those from Former Otsgebiete, but also about migrants from present-day East Germany to the west in 1950s-2020.

Wrong. You did say the part about 4 grandparents and in Mecklenburg, I didn't disagree. I don't expect people to remember this kind of shit but I actually didn't even say the Mecklenburg average included post-WW2 refugees, we were actually talking about how actual modern Mecklenburg people are further shifted east than the 4 grandparents Mecklenburg sample(context was why Mecklenburg performs so poorly I think). You did then say West Germany received more refugees than Mecklenburg and East Germany, probably offended by East, East Germans lowering the performance of East Germans. Neither you or I specified whether total number or in proportion, but the context was obviously in proportion, if we were discussing the genetics of people in Mecklenburg.

The thing about West Germans having no Slavic admixture doesn't sound like something I would say, I'm the one always saying nearly all Germans have Slavic admixture, even before WW2 movements.

^^^
And now look at the data you personally posted:

West Germany - 7,876,211
East Germany - 3,601,000

In your opinion, 8 million is less than 4 million?

(and after 1940s, lots of them continued moving from East to West Germany - they were overrepresented in that migration, compared to native Germans of Mecklenburg etc.)

Context was genetics of Mecklenburg people, which means obviously the only thing that should be discussed is in proportion.

OK, so where should I start? Several of your claims were inaccurate. First of all, this claim is inaccurate:

"major groups in modern Poland like Galician Poles, as well as Ukrainian Poles who moved everywhere in Poland en masse after WW2."

Actually, they moved mainly to Former German territories. In Central Poland, they were under 5% everywhere.

Here is the number of Eastern Poles who moved to each region of Poland until 1950, and as % of population:

Region - Poles from the USSR in year 1950 [% of total population]

City Warsaw - 20,506 [ca. 3.1%]
Warsaw V. - 25,180 [ca. 1.2%]
Bydgoszcz V. - 67,731 [ca. 4.7%]
Poznań V. - 80,780 [ca. 3.8%]
City Łódź - 28,181 [ca. 4.5%]
Łódź V. - 27,384 [ca. 1.9%]
Kielce V. - 16,470 [ca. 1.0%]
Lublin V. - 86,046 [ca. 5.3%]
Białystok V. - 28,827 [ca. 3.0%]
Cracow V. - 53,190 [ca. 2.5%]
Rzeszów V. - 64,817 [ca. 4.7%]
Katowice V. [pre-war Polish part] - 38,457 [ca. 1.8%]
Gdańsk V. - 104,437 [ca. 11%]*
=====
=====
=====
Katowice V. [pre-war German part] - 74,620 [ca. 14%]
Opole V. - 192,873 [ca. 24%]
Wrocław V. - 593,348 [ca. 35%]
Lubuskie V. - 230,553 [ca. 41%]
Szczecin V. - 147,526 [ca. 28%]
Koszalin V. - 120,370 [ca. 23%]
Olsztyn V. - 135,430 [ca. 20%]

TOTAL - 2,136,726 from the USSR (including Former Eastern Poland).

=====

In addition, there were also Polish re-emigrants from other countries:

1) From France - 78,431
2) From Germany - 57,516 [those from areas west of the Oder-Neisse]
3) Other countries - 69,233 [including Poles from Bosnia/Yugoslavia]

Grand TOTAL (from the USSR and from other countries) - 2,341,906

Their distribution was very similar, for example in Wrocław Voivodeship:

From France - 32,062
From Germany - 14,529
From others - 37,748 [including Bosnian Poles who settled near Bunzlau]

Poles from abroad in Wrocław Voivodeship were ca. 40% of the total population in 1950, but of that 5% were Poles from Bosnia, France, etc.

====

*Gdańsk V. in 1950 included both pre-war Polish Corridor, pre-war Free City Danzig, and parts of pre-war German territory.

In year 1950, Gdańsk V. had a population of 930,448 - which can broken down into those three parts in the following way:

1) In areas of pre-war Polish Pomerelia - 429,602 (of which 374,740 - or 87.23% - were native pre-war Pomerelians, not including migrants from nearby Bydgoszcz V.)

2) In areas of pre-war Free City Danzig - 292,463 (of which 75,758 - or 25.90% - were native pre-war Pomerelians, not including migrants from nearby Bydgoszcz V.)

3) In areas that pre-war were German - 208,383 (of which 43,624 - or 20.93% - were native pre-war Pomerelians, not including migrants from nearby Bydgoszcz V.)

None of this debunks the simple statement of "who moved everywhere in Poland en masse after WW2.". Poles in the USSR did indeed move en masse, not many are left in former USSR territories, or not nearly as much as before in proportion.

The population of Poland was 24,824,018 in 1950, if 2,341,906 were refugees that is indeed "en masse", and 9.4% of the population in Poland. They didn't stop coming in 1950, either. I love how you think where they settled is relevant to anything. Btw, Poles from modern Belarus were darker than western Poles(which goes along nicely with modern Poles being blonder than Belarusians in my study, not that I present this old study as proof of course, and Polish Lithuanians are light so that doesn't go along with Poland or Germany blonder than Lithuania).



Now that you spent all this effort on literally the most minor points of the actual argument I made, data on Polish immigrants to the Americas or German immigrants to the Americas, which was the crux of the argument, please.

[XenophobicPrussian]

No, it's not, you've ignored Moldova

Sorry bruv. I'd send you over to the other big modern pigmentation study done by ToeKneeHwin but he also ignored Moldova unfortunately. Maybe Blade will do Moldova.

There are data on Moldova. I can post.

Still haven't learned lone data on Moldova wouldn't be relevant without comparisons against other countries done by the same author yet eh? I mean you did post numbers compared to Ukraine but I'm sure he wants to know how Moldova compares to all of Europe. You obviously wouldn't be able to compare those numbers to mine, or any other studies for that matter, because they are done by different people showing extremely different results as people have shown time and time again.

[Anaximander]

That's all I needed to know about you, thanks. I tried to be nice and ignore my Greek shitlist boycott one time, all I got was a headache, shame.

I bet u havent seen one albanian in your hole life. Now let us Greeks face all these balkan orcs, while u Germans live in your safeguarded northern provinces. Because as always u have been naive and effeminate people. Neverthelles u have no right to tell me who i am , or if i am anatolian or not, and compare me with turks and albanians.

Listen it well and get it inside your head well. The albanians are THE DARKEST people on the balkans with the lowest IQ, and the ugliest.
We spilt our bloode against these orcs that surround us every day, while u sit on your safe northern province, like SISSIES.

[Peterski]

Posen Poles are pretty much the most northernly Poles outside of Lithuanian Poles

Excuse me and West Prussian Poles are what? Kashubians were at the most 1/4 of West Prussia's Slavic population, the other 3/4 being Poles proper.

Kashubians inhabited in big numbers only 7 counties of West Prussia (Puck, Wejherowo, Kartuzy, Kościerzyna, Chojnice, Danzig Highlands, Człuchów).

I have per-county figures both for the early 1800s and for the early 1900s.

[Videx]

Wow, great job!

It's interesting how Hungary stands out with pure red hair in the region. No idea why though.

[Peterski]

Now that you spent all this effort on literally the most minor points of the actual argument I made, data on Polish immigrants to the Americas or German immigrants to the Americas, which was the crux of the argument

Yes I haven't finished yet. That was one of the points you made that were inaccurate, which was the easiest one to debunk so I did that first.

As for Polish immigrants to the Americas - I suppose your statements were based on Wacław Kruszka's book "Historya Polska w Ameryce" ???

You forgot that Kruszka's figures are for the 1890s or for year 1900.

After year 1900 proportions became reversed, with the largest numbers of Polish migrants coming from Austrian Galicia in period 1890s-1920s.

Also the author was from Prov. Posen, so he was perhaps a bit biased trying to prove that the largest group of Polish-Americans were like him.

It is possible that he overestimated the number of Prussian Polish immigrants, at the expense of Catholic Germans.

=====

As for German immigrants - it depends on state, in Wisconsin I think Germans came mostly from North-Eastern areas.

The population of Poland was 24,824,018 in 1950, if 2,341,906 were refugees that is indeed "en masse", and 9.4% of the population in Poland.

But you claimed they settled all over Poland. That part was incorrect, the reality is they moved mainly to Post-German areas.

This map I made is based on a 2012 survey, it also includes people with partial Kresy ancestry, still the pattern is the same:



Also you mentioned Ukrainian Poles, while almost as large number came from Belarus-Lithuania combined, as from Ukraine.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Wow, great job!

It's interesting how Hungary stands out with pure red hair in the region. No idea why though.

Thanks for the kind words.

Shear luck and margin of error, probably. My Hungary data was based on "top players" so wasn't exactly regionally representative(although probably not a lot of regional variation in Hungary) , but already in the top 30 top Hungarian footballers you have 2 redheads in Adam Bogdan and Laszlo Kleinheisler, and even arguably Zsolt Kalmar(although he went into my blonde category). Probably with an increase of N it would lower substantially. Although who knows, maybe there is something there with red hair and Hungarians, there's very red haired Uralic groups that don't follow into the Celtic-red hair stereotype, but Hungarians themselves aren't very Uralic genetically as far as I know, but still, who knows.

[Peterski]

They didn't stop coming in 1950, either.

Ukrainian Poles nearly stopped coming by 1950. In the 2nd wave (until 1960) a lot more came from Belarus & Lithuania than from Ukraine, actually.

So this even further debunks your point, and you failed to mention Belarusian and Lithuanian Poles at all, as if only those from Ukraine were coming.

Before 1939, Ukraine had more Poles in absolute numbers due to higher population density.

But as % of the total population, Belarus and South Lithuania were more Polonized actually.

I would estimate among all East Poles in today's Poland, up to 60% have origins from Ukraine and at least 40% from Belarus & Lithuania (combined).

A few years ago, the oldest centenarian alive in Poland was a resident of Szczecin born in Wilno...

And, of course, there is a larger Polish minority still remaining in Belarus/Lithuania to this day.