What was the core of the original Magyars ?

[Turul Karom]

Turul, thank you for excellent posts. It is an excellent read and I hope more posts of similar quality will follow

Thank you for your thanks. You of anyone know how I attempt to be forthright in my arguments. I listen to all and read all in as many languages as I possibly can handle.

Quick question, why make the poll anonymous when non-Hungarians will answer in favor of the non-Turkic answer? Your request for those who will not vote unless they are Hungarian, though honest, relies on the honor system. Non-Hungarians might skewer the vote while also not posting in the thread.

I see all haplogroups in Hungarian graves as "Magyars". There is no singular Turkic haplogroup and I see no singular Hungarian haplogroup. But when looking at the Y-DNA, R1 is always more common than N1, just as seen in other Turkic peoples. Therefore the argument that Magyars are predominately more Ugric because Ugrics have a lot of N1 is invalid, as the number of R1 DNA surpasses it.

Also it is important to note, that is is not just Hungarians who see themselves as Turkic alone, but other Turkics who see Hungarians as their brothers and sisters too.

[Jana]

^^^^ Poll is public. You can see who voted for what. I already see 2 non Hungarians who voted, and I asked in opening post as well as the poll question not to.

[Turul Karom]

^^^^ Poll is public. You can see who voted for what. I already see 2 non Hungarians who voted, and I asked in opening post as well as the poll question not to.

Hahaha, my mistake. TA server end crashed (I got a 502 page) for me and loaded the same page and I thought that the poll was busted when I saw no names under the numbers. I can see them now without issues.

It also asks me about double posting or leaving/staying on the page sometimes. Weird.

[Blondie]

Thank you for your thanks. You of anyone know how I attempt to be forthright in my arguments. I listen to all and read all in as many languages as I possibly can handle.

Quick question, why make the poll anonymous when non-Hungarians will answer in favor of the non-Turkic answer? Your request for those who will not vote unless they are Hungarian, though honest, relies on the honor system. Non-Hungarians might skewer the vote while also not posting in the thread.

I see all haplogroups in Hungarian graves as "Magyars". There is no singular Turkic haplogroup and I see no singular Hungarian haplogroup. But when looking at the Y-DNA, R1 is always more common than N1, just as seen in other Turkic peoples. Therefore the argument that Magyars are predominately more Ugric because Ugrics have a lot of N1 is invalid, as the number of R1 DNA surpasses it.

Also it is important to note, that is is not just Hungarians who see themselves as Turkic alone, but other Turkics who see Hungarians as their brothers and sisters too.

1. You are lying as always, hungarians don't consider themselves turkic, just look this poll:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/po...do=showresults

Every single hungarian voter for "No i'm not turkic". The problem you want to force your turkic mania for other hungarians.

2. Haplogroup R1 is indo-european not turkic, originated from East Europe, PIE urheimat and spreaded by indo-europeans:



The central asian, r1a-z93 is iranic not turkic:

"Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers, the people who later called themselves 'Aryans' in the Rig Veda and the Avesta, originated in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), in the Tobol and Ishim valleys, east of the Ural Mountains. It was founded by pastoralist nomads from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE), ranging from the upper Don-Volga to the Ural Mountains, and the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), extending from the lower Don-Volga to the Caspian depression.

The Sintashta-Petrovka culture, associated with R1a-Z93 and its subclades, was the first Bronze Age advance of the Indo-Europeans west of the Urals, opening the way to the vast plains and deserts of Central Asia to the metal-rich Altai mountains. The Aryans quickly expanded over all Central Asia, from the shores of the Caspian to southern Siberia and the Tian Shan, through trading, seasonal herd migrations, and looting raids.

Horse-drawn war chariots seem to have been invented by Sintashta people around 2100 BCE, and quickly spread to the mining region of Bactria-Margiana (modern border of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan). Copper had been extracted intensively in the Urals, and the Proto-Indo-Iranians from Sintashta-Petrovka were exporting it in huge quantities to the Middle East. They appear to have been attracted by the natural resources of the Zeravshan valley for a Petrovka copper-mining colony was established in Tugai around 1900 BCE, and tin was extracted soon afterwards at Karnab and Mushiston. Tin was an especially valued resource in the late Bronze Age, when weapons were made of copper-tin alloy, stronger than the more primitive arsenical bronze. In the 1700's BCE, the Indo-Iranians expanded to the lower Amu Darya valley and settled in irrigation farming communities (Tazabagyab culture). By 1600 BCE, the old fortified towns of Margiana-Bactria were abandoned, submerged by the northern steppe migrants. The group of Central Asian cultures under Indo-Iranian influence is known as the Andronovo horizon, and lasted until 800 BCE.

The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE. The Medes, Parthians and Persians, all Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture, moved into the Iranian plateau from 800 BCE. Those that stayed in Central Asia are remembered by history as the Scythians, while the Yamna descendants who remained in the Pontic-Caspian steppe became known as the Sarmatians to the ancient Greeks and Romans.

The Indo-Iranian migrations have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent. The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, R1a ranges from 15 to 50% of the population, depending on the region, ethnic group and caste. R1a is generally stronger is the North-West of the subcontinent, and weakest in the Dravidian-speaking South (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh) and from Bengal eastward. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.

Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war. The first major settlement of Indo-Aryan women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common today."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Old magyars had very minimal turkic paternal origin, the uralic haplogroup N or indo-european haplos were much more.

[Decius]

I think Ugric

[Turul Karom]

1. You are lying as always, hungarians don't consider themselves turkic, just look this poll:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/po...do=showresults

Every single hungarian voter for "No i'm not turkic". The problem you want to force your turkic mania for other hungarians.

2. Haplogroup R1 is indo-european not turkic, originated from East Europe, PIE urheimat and spreaded by indo-europeans:



The central asian, r1a-z93 is iranic not turkic:

"Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers, the people who later called themselves 'Aryans' in the Rig Veda and the Avesta, originated in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), in the Tobol and Ishim valleys, east of the Ural Mountains. It was founded by pastoralist nomads from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE), ranging from the upper Don-Volga to the Ural Mountains, and the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), extending from the lower Don-Volga to the Caspian depression.

The Sintashta-Petrovka culture, associated with R1a-Z93 and its subclades, was the first Bronze Age advance of the Indo-Europeans west of the Urals, opening the way to the vast plains and deserts of Central Asia to the metal-rich Altai mountains. The Aryans quickly expanded over all Central Asia, from the shores of the Caspian to southern Siberia and the Tian Shan, through trading, seasonal herd migrations, and looting raids.

Horse-drawn war chariots seem to have been invented by Sintashta people around 2100 BCE, and quickly spread to the mining region of Bactria-Margiana (modern border of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan). Copper had been extracted intensively in the Urals, and the Proto-Indo-Iranians from Sintashta-Petrovka were exporting it in huge quantities to the Middle East. They appear to have been attracted by the natural resources of the Zeravshan valley for a Petrovka copper-mining colony was established in Tugai around 1900 BCE, and tin was extracted soon afterwards at Karnab and Mushiston. Tin was an especially valued resource in the late Bronze Age, when weapons were made of copper-tin alloy, stronger than the more primitive arsenical bronze. In the 1700's BCE, the Indo-Iranians expanded to the lower Amu Darya valley and settled in irrigation farming communities (Tazabagyab culture). By 1600 BCE, the old fortified towns of Margiana-Bactria were abandoned, submerged by the northern steppe migrants. The group of Central Asian cultures under Indo-Iranian influence is known as the Andronovo horizon, and lasted until 800 BCE.

The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE. The Medes, Parthians and Persians, all Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture, moved into the Iranian plateau from 800 BCE. Those that stayed in Central Asia are remembered by history as the Scythians, while the Yamna descendants who remained in the Pontic-Caspian steppe became known as the Sarmatians to the ancient Greeks and Romans.

The Indo-Iranian migrations have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent. The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, R1a ranges from 15 to 50% of the population, depending on the region, ethnic group and caste. R1a is generally stronger is the North-West of the subcontinent, and weakest in the Dravidian-speaking South (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh) and from Bengal eastward. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.

Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war. The first major settlement of Indo-Aryan women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common today."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Old magyars had very minimal turkic paternal origin, the uralic haplogroup N or indo-european haplos were much more.

This has nothing to do with how people feel today or modern identity. The entire point of this thread is to discuss the conquering Hungarians and their affiliations pre-settlement.

Your large wall of copy-paste addresses nothing. R1 is ancestral Eurasian, and there are more than one Turkic haplogroup, unless you wouldn't consider the Kyrgyz of Kyrgyzstan, from again your own source, as being Turkic despite having R1 as Y-DNA.

Do you even read through your sources or what I write in reply? Did you mean to post this even in this thread, or another one?

[oszkar07]

New genetic papers confirm what the history told us: Hungarian conquerors were tribes from Eurasian steppes and Siberia of primarly mixed Ugric-Turkic oirigins.



https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hungarian-people

But between the 2, what do you think was the original core of Magyars, and who do you feel more affinity with ? It would be nice to state your reasons.
Both Hungarians and non-Hungarian members can offer their insight, but poll (which is public) is for Hungarian members only.

The core of the Magyars were Ugric peoples ... this is proven by fact that majority of language is Ugric not Turkic.
Turkic words in Hungarian were added later ... they are borrowings .
Turkics are known for horseriding but the Hungarian word for horse is of Ugric origin not Turkic.
We know that Hungarians had associations with Turkic people in the periods leading up to the honfoglalas, so these connections with Bulgars, Khazars and the known fact that 3 Kabar tribes joined the Hungarians.
If Hungarians were originally or predominatly Turkic ... then we should still be speaking Turkic , we originally were Ugric and this is why by majority our language is Ugric but genetically Hungarians was already a mixed people at time of honfoglalas ... eg not truly Ugric or Turkic but already combination of Ugrics,Germanics, CentralAsians/Turkics,Scythians,Slavics,Caucasians.

[Turul Karom]

The core of the Magyars were Ugric peoples ... this is proven by fact that majority of language is Ugric not Turkic.
Turkic words in Hungarian were added later ... they are borrowings .
Turkics are known for horseriding but the Hungarian word for horse is of Ugric origin not Turkic.
We know that Hungarians had associations with Turkic people in the periods leading up to the honfoglalas, so these connections with Bulgars, Khazars and the known fact that 3 Kabar tribes joined the Hungarians.
If Hungarians were originally or predominatly Turkic ... then we should still be speaking Turkic , we originally were Ugric and this is why by majority our language is Ugric but genetically Hungarians was already a mixed people at time of honfoglalas ... eg not truly Ugric or Turkic but already combination of Ugrics,Germanics, CentralAsians/Turkics,Scythians,Slavics,Caucasians.

That's an interesting theory. Let's think about what was said and ask some important questions.

Do you think that someones language being "Ugric" makes someone ethnically Ugric? Are all fluent English speakers Anglo-Saxons if that is their primary vocabulary?
Do you feel that there is any issue with the language classification when the minority-majority words are of "unknown origin"? Why do you believe that language is the only way needed to settle ancient Hungarian ancestry? The Ugric words simply could have been a form of business core that stuck as the lingua franca, just like English.

Can you present anything that shows conquering Hungarians as genetically favoring an Ugric core?

[Blondie]

[QUOTE=Turul Karom;6298346]That's an interesting theory. Let's think about what was said and ask some important questions.

Do you think that someones language being "Ugric" makes someone ethnically Ugric? Are all fluent English speakers Anglo-Saxons if that is their primary vocabulary?
Do you feel that there is any issue with the language classification when the minority-majority words are of "unknown origin"? Why do you believe that language is the only way needed to settle ancient Hungarian ancestry? The Ugric words simply could have been a form of business core that stuck as the lingua franca, just like English. [QUOTE=Turul Karom;6298346]

The problem with that the Eurasian Steppe was mostly turkic speaker who were more advanced peoples like finno-ugrics, their military was also stronger, that's why the ugric language adoptation is impossible because if magyars were originally turkic speakers as you claim why would they adopted a lower class minority people's language like ugrics? It makes no sense.

Can you present anything that shows conquering Hungarians as genetically favoring an Ugric core?

Of course, this study shows that many conqueror had finno-ugric paternal origin:
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1386...es_CsanyiB.pdf

Other source:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2008.00440.x

New database, 5 fino-ugric paternal ancestry (N) and only 1 turkic (Q):



These haplos are pure markers which connected to the original population and it's original ancestry and not result of mixing with other peoples.

[Turul Karom]

The problem with that the Eurasian Steppe was mostly turkic speaker who were more advanced peoples like finno-ugrics, their military was also stronger, that's why the ugric language adoptation is impossible because if magyars were originally turkic speakers as you claim why would they adopted a lower class minority people's language like ugrics? It makes no sense.



Of course, this study shows that many conqueror had finno-ugric paternal origin:
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1386...es_CsanyiB.pdf

Other source:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2008.00440.x

New database, 5 fino-ugric paternal ancestry (N) and only 1 turkic (Q):



These haplos are pure markers which connected to the original population and it's original ancestry and not result of mixing with other peoples.

Not a single part of that answered what I was asking to oszkar. You just went onto a random tangent.

As far as language adoption, this happens all the time. This happed with the Rus, the Normans, and more. Also they were not "lower class" because tribal affiliation and steppe culture never had the same rigid aristocratic system that the settled Europeans did.

You also focus on haplogroup G as if that could be the only Turkic one. Well, since the Árpád dynasty wasn't Q or N, does that not make them real Hungarians? How were they ever elected leaders in the first place, since the Khazars insisted that the Magyars "choose one from among themselves" to lead them?

You use only Q as valid in order to artificially shrink the pool of possible Turkic haplogroups.