Haplogroup C-M401 among Mongols

[porpozontokonto]

Other subclades would inlude Q-M25, the original haplogroup of the Turks,

Nope. That would be N-M231. Q-M25 was greatly replaced by N in Siberia long before proto Turkics appeared. And Ashina clan descended from Saka-Tigrakhauda nobility from around the area Lake Issyk is located. Also they were using the Orkhon script which evolved from some kind of writing system that's akin to the inscriptions found in a drinking cup from Issyk kurgan.

the Xiongnu were also probably Yeniseian speaking

Agree.

[Shubotai]

C-F1756 might be much more accurate to describe the various branches of mongolic language family, particularly due to its uncovering in sites in Mongolia and China like Jinggouzi, where proto-mongolic texts have also been found and overall their similar fragmentary distribution in Asia. It exists with an average frequency of 5% among all mongolic groups but is rarer in turkic groups. Also, this removes some of the issues like a general absence of C-M401 from Kalmyk people but a presence thereof F1756 alongside 38% C-M48 and 10% C-M407, the blank that Dzungar genocide left in Xinjiang beyond some Oirat groups with F1756, the presence of the haplogroup in some eastern european countries and the fact that the leading chinggisid tribe of Tore in Kazakhstan belongs to F1756, while the majority of Kazakh tribes under C-M504>M401 would be of turkic background, each having their own turkic tamga, or that mongolic languages being difficult indeed could not spread further in more regions than where C-F1756 is concentrated. It also implies a greater mongolian ancestry for Kyrgyz and Uzbeks than for Kazakhs. Apparently, C-M401 is more populous among turkic groups, especially Kazakhs and chinese Kazakhs, but also Uzbeks, Kirghiz, Khazars, Nogai, Karachay-Balkars, Tatars, Azerbaijani, Turkish, as well as historical Turks in Mongolia. Its distribution is also reminiscent of the Turkic khaganate of the Göktürks.

F1756 should be of Xianbei background, rendering Mongolic languages a branch of the historical Xianbeic languages, including also para-mongolic languages, Tabghach and others. The subclade C-F1756>F3889 would have included the linguistic ancestors of the Mongols, like it is suggested in the research Phylogeny of Y-chromosome haplogroup C3b-F1756, an important paternal lineage in Altaic-speaking populations with subclades of F3889 representing Buryat, Yugur, Daur and Oirat branches. Other subclades of F1756 will be found in Xibe, Hui, Altaic people, presumably from a broader Xianbei origin.
So, either the starcluster C-M401 is turkic or the status of the starcluster should be transferred to C-F1756>F3889. In any case, C-F1756 is more numerous in Mongolia and C-M401 in Kazakhstan, while C-M86 is common in both countries.

N is a broad haplogroup and its main subclade N-M46/Tat is associated with the Uralic language family for the most part, with its phylogeny justifying a classifacation scheme of the Uralic languages where the Finnic branch is seperate from the Ugric-Samoyedic rather than a scheme where Finnic-Ugric is separate from the Samoyedic branch. But the subclade N-F2930 in the same level as M46, present from Altai until Turkey, could indeed bear a relationship to the Turkic language family.

The case with Q-M25 being on the same level with the Inuit Q-NWT01, is that even if turkic and inuit languages are not related there are similar words at a very basic level like ana/ananaq and ata/atataq which stand for mother and father, but now that proto-turkic forms like ög and kaŋ have been reconstructed for the same words the image in basic vocabulary/swadesh lists can change.

The Chukotko-Kamchatkan language family must also have a C haplogroup origin, since in the lower parts and Kamchatka peninsula which have greater linguistic diversity within the family, Itelmen and Koryaks have mostly C-B90 and mtdna G1b, whereas Chukchi in the northern parts, have mostly Q but they also have small percentage of both C-B90 and mtdna G1b.

ItelmensY_DNA.gif
KoryaksY_DNA.gif
ChukchisY_DNA.gif
ItelmenMT_DNA.gif
KoryaksMT_DNA.gif
ChukchaMT_DNA.gif

Haplogroup C-Z31698 is found in northern/eastern areas of Japan even from Jomon period and is associated with a stone type of culture and could bear a relationship to the Ainu languages, which have altaic traits. Its phylogeny renders it on the same level with the ancestor of mainland branches of altaic C-L1373, namely C-F4032.

C-M504>M401

Turkic languages

C-F1756>F3889

Mongolic languages

C-M48>M86/77

Tungusic languages

C-M48>C-B90

Chukotko-Kamchatkan languages

C-Z31698/Z31700

Ainu languages

C-F3918>P39

Na-Dene languages

[Speedy Freedy]

It's some mistake. Bashkirs have less than 1% of hg Q. Volga Tatars - 3%. Crimean tatars is also a bit. Lithuanian Tatars -10%. Perhaps some sub-ethnic groups of Siberian Tatars have up to 15%. (Russian slavic have 1.5 % of hg Q, Kirgiz and Kazakh - 3-4%,Noghay-0%, Mongols - 6%).
Too few turkic owners of hg Q to be proto-turkic hg. Perhaps the turkic owners of the Mongolian subclades of the hg C are several times more than the owners of the hg Q.

Ishtyak-Tokuz sub-group of Tobol-Irtysh group of Siberian Tatars have 38% of haplogroup Q. The percentage is even higher in Baraba group of Siberian Tatars.

[Yaglakar]

C-F1756 might be much more accurate to describe the various branches of mongolic language family, particularly due to its uncovering in sites in Mongolia and China like Jinggouzi, where proto-mongolic texts have also been found and overall their similar fragmentary distribution in Asia. It exists with an average frequency of 5% among all mongolic groups but is rarer in turkic groups. Also, this removes some of the issues like a general absence of C-M401 from Kalmyk people but a presence thereof F1756 alongside 38% C-M48 and 10% C-M407, the blank that Dzungar genocide left in Xinjiang beyond some Oirat groups with F1756, the presence of the haplogroup in some eastern european countries and the fact that the leading chinggisid tribe of Tore in Kazakhstan belongs to F1756, while the majority of Kazakh tribes under C-M504>M401 would be of turkic background, each having their own turkic tamga, or that mongolic languages being difficult indeed could not spread further in more regions than where C-F1756 is concentrated. It also implies a greater mongolian ancestry for Kyrgyz and Uzbeks than for Kazakhs. Apparently, C-M401 is more populous among turkic groups, especially Kazakhs and chinese Kazakhs, but also Uzbeks, Kirghiz, Khazars, Nogai, Karachay-Balkars, Tatars, Azerbaijani, Turkish, as well as historical Turks in Mongolia. Its distribution is also reminiscent of the Turkic khaganate of the Göktürks.

F1756 should be of Xianbei background, rendering Mongolic languages a branch of the historical Xianbeic languages, including also para-mongolic languages, Tabghach and others. The subclade C-F1756>F3889 would have included the linguistic ancestors of the Mongols, like it is suggested in the research Phylogeny of Y-chromosome haplogroup C3b-F1756, an important paternal lineage in Altaic-speaking populations with subclades of F3889 representing Buryat, Yugur, Daur and Oirat branches. Other subclades of F1756 will be found in Xibe, Hui, Altaic people, presumably from a broader Xianbei origin.
So, either the starcluster C-M401 is turkic or the status of the starcluster should be transferred to C-F1756>F3889. In any case, C-F1756 is more numerous in Mongolia and C-M401 in Kazakhstan, while C-M86 is common in both countries.

Starcluster is m-48 and m-407. More Kazakhs belong to the starcluster than other Central Asians. If Kazakhs have less Mongolic genetic impact than either Uzbeks or Kirghiz then Naimans, Kereits, Djalayirs and others who are part of modern Kazakh ethnos were after-all Turkic speaking?

[Chelubey]

Ishtyak-Tokuz sub-group of Tobol-Irtysh group of Siberian Tatars have 38% of haplogroup Q. The percentage is even higher in Baraba group of Siberian Tatars.

We must be careful about the subgroups . These small subgroups of small Turkic ethnic groups in Siberia are often just big families with founder ancestor, who lived 500 years ago. Therefore, in one subgroup there may be 30% of subclades of Q , in other - zero.
By the way, the Russians called the Uralic peoples - Ugrians, Samoyeds, Selkups - Ostyaks

[Chelubey]

to Shubotai.
Based just on genetic statistics is it impossible to draw the right conclusions.
Combinations of genetics + history + linguistics + genealogical legends can solve historical problems.
Look at the complex history of the Kazakh tribe Argyn:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90...8B%D0%BD%D1%8B
Their name possibly has a Mongolian origin (meaning 10).
However, their dominant subclade is the subclade of haplogroup G, which is very close to Iranian subclades.
Thus, we can reconstruct the history of this tribe like this:
The founders of this tribe are Mongolized Iranians, who were assimilated by Kazakhs, later parts of this tribe came to the Crimean Tatars, Bashkirs and Khakasses.
If you do not know these data, you might think that proto-turks, or proto-kypchaks had this subclades.
This is a typical story of Turkic tribes.
After the Turkic peoples linguistically divided , they mixed several times among themselves and with other non-Turkic tribes.
Therefore, we must be careful about "common haplogroups" of Turkic people.
How well does this combined method work?
Good enough. Look, even before genetic research, some scientists believed that 2 Bashkir tribes were of Ugric origin: one tribe had a Uralic name and a genealogical legend about Uralic origin, the other tribe had only a Uralic name. Genetic studies have shown the dominance of haplogroup N in these tribes.
Most of Turkic tribes having Mongolian names show a close genetic relationship with Mongols.
It works.

[gültekin]

to Shubotai.
Based just on genetic statistics is it impossible to draw the right conclusions.
Combinations of genetics + history + linguistics + genealogical legends can solve historical problems.
Look at the complex history of the Kazakh tribe Argyn:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90...8B%D0%BD%D1%8B
Their name possibly has a Mongolian origin (meaning 10).
However, their dominant subclade is the subclade of haplogroup G, which is very close to Iranian subclades.
Thus, we can reconstruct the history of this tribe like this:
The founders of this tribe are Mongolized Iranians, who were assimilated by Kazakhs, later parts of this tribe came to the Crimean Tatars, Bashkirs and Khakasses.

before pulled this out of blue, show us where is this supposed ıranian G?

not even here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

[Synapsid]

Is Q-232 in Turkic the same sub-clades as those found in Xiongnu remains?

[Chelubey]

before pulled this out of blue, show us where is this supposed ıranian G?
not even here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

From the link above:

Genetic studies on the Y-chromosome markers of nine genera of Argyns showed that the gene pool of the Argynian ancestors marks the Y-haplogroup G1 (67% of Argyns are carriers of haplotypes belonging to the haplogroup G1-M285) and on the paternal line goes back to the heritage of the Indo-Iranian language family: Argyns' genetic distances are minimal with the peoples of Iran (Assyrians, Balochis, Iranians, Mazenderans, Kurds).

[Speedy Freedy]

We must be careful about the subgroups . These small subgroups of small Turkic ethnic groups in Siberia are often just big families with founder ancestor, who lived 500 years ago. Therefore, in one subgroup there may be 30% of subclades of Q , in other - zero.
By the way, the Russians called the Uralic peoples - Ugrians, Samoyeds, Selkups - Ostyaks

Well, you mentined the sub-groups of Siberian Tatars in the first place, that's why I decided to contribute, because I thought it was relevant to you. While you may be right about the founder ancestor of haplogroup Q amongst the Siberian Tatars, it may also be true about any haplogroup, not just Q.

By the way, the only Samoyedic ethnic group with the high frequency of haplogroup Q are Selkups (over 66%), while it is almost absent amongst the Nenets (1-2%). Ob-Ugric Khanty and Mansi have moderate amounts of Q (21%), though. In Siberia, the Q haplogroup peaks in Kets (around 90%). But then again, the Kets number just over 1200 individuals.