How the Balkans went from Sardinian-like to West-Asian like?

[Daos777]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/05...ge-thrace.html




scy192 scythianMoldovaCG7540766 k15

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
1 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.840242
2 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.863138
3 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.908107
4 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.040099
5 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Valencia @ 5.054066
6 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.055067
7 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.067988
8 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southeast_English + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 5.080188
9 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southeast_English + Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.082127
10 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Valencia @ 5.083286
11 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Aragon @ 5.089484
12 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 5.092433
13 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Murcia @ 5.096451
14 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.099330
15 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Aragon @ 5.117218
16 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.157411
17 Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Aragon + West_German @ 5.160912
18 Portuguese + Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English @ 5.175196
19 Irish + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.175495
20 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.187489

[/QUOTE]

What a fucking mess those samples are.

Some of them show up as Sardinian, Spanish, Italian but other ones show German and Norwegian. Wtf this makes me believe these weren’t scythians but their slaves.

[Mingle]

Thracians were not Sardinian like, they were carrying high amounts of Steppe which also brings West Asian. This is probably the reason why Bulgarians has a lot of West Asian compared to the other Balkan nations. I don't think this case is similar in Illyrians.

It is really annoying that people call each ancient sample from Bulgaria as Thracian. There is no Thracian sample yet.

The sample was from Iron Age interior Bulgaria. It couldn't have been anything other than a Thracian. If this sample isn't a Thracian, then no sample ever found can be considered a Thracian.

[Jana]

Thracians were not Sardinian like, they were carrying high amounts of Steppe which also brings West Asian. This is probably the reason why Bulgarians has a lot of West Asian compared to the other Balkan nations. I don't think this case is similar in Illyrians.

It is really annoying that people call each ancient sample from Bulgaria as Thracian. There is no Thracian sample yet.

Why wouldn't that Iron Age Bulgarian sample from central Bulgaria Thracian? Nobody lived in that region during that time but Thracians.

[War Chef]

What a fucking mess those samples are.

Some of them show up as Sardinian, Spanish, Italian but other ones show German and Norwegian. Wtf this makes me believe these weren’t scythians but their slaves.

Those are clearly Iranicized local Dacians. The ones who look Germanic/Norwegian are of Bastarnae or east-Germanic extraction. That area was a melting pot during that time yet tribes kept to themselves. Except the Scirii who were mixed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii

[Jana]

We all know the ancient Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians were very Sardinian-like comparable to modern Balkan people who have strong West-Asian Caucasus-like genes. So the problem is there is no documented migration of people from south-Caucasus to the Balkans. Maybe it came from Romans?

Balkans was Sardinian like only in neolithic. Bronze Age samples from Croatia cluster with North/Central Italians and Iberians.

[Kaspias]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/05...ge-thrace.html




scy192 scythian Moldova CG7540766 k15

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
1 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.840242
2 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.863138
3 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.908107
4 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.040099
5 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Valencia @ 5.054066
6 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.055067
7 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.067988
8 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southeast_English + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 5.080188
9 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southeast_English + Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.082127
10 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Valencia @ 5.083286
11 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Aragon @ 5.089484
12 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 5.092433
13 Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Murcia @ 5.096451
14 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.099330
15 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Aragon @ 5.117218
16 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.157411
17 Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Aragon + West_German @ 5.160912
18 Portuguese + Sardinian + South_Italian + Southwest_English @ 5.175196
19 Irish + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.175495
20 Orcadian + Sardinian + South_Italian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.187489

[/QUOTE]

I agree about Scythian_Moldova but not for Dacians, Thracians. Balkan Turks and Thracian Bulgarians get them in the single population even closer than any other modern population.


For Dienekes:

Before Thracians arrive, the native population was farmers. If these samples are close to the Sardinians, then we have three different option:
-Thracians couldn't make mass effect on genetics, their population was not more than the natives.
-Person an outlier
-Person have nothing to do with Thracians


Also, the isolation of Sardinians towards modern day Europeans and any other groups shows that this archaic feature is no longer shared by any modern groups and Sardinians remain closest to Neolithic Europeans. This may be the reason why they associated with Sardinians.

Only on the assumption that Cardial Pottery in their Mediterranean migrations to the west mixed with "European Hunter Gatherers" almost exactly the same way as LBK in Stuttgart. However, evidence of Loschbour- (or Brana 1-) like HG in the Balkan is still missing, and Bulgarian K8 rather correlates with a Russian intrusion - not so strange given the northern cultural links of Thracians.

Since both assumptions seem to be wrong and unsupported by the Sardinian evidence, I gather the EEF component should be considered indigenous in southern Europe.

The ADMIXTURE analysis is particularly interesting. Of course I'm very keen to know how West Asian and how North European these Iron Age Bulgarians were. But because of the limited data set of modern populations used, a component that's clearly similar to the Dodecad K7b or Globe13 or MDLP World-22 West Asian component shows up only at K=8, it's the pink component which makes up one half of the Adygei and the entirety of some Druze individuals.

So the early Iron Age Bulgarian is about as West Asian as the modern French are, and just a little more than Ötzi. On the whole he resembles Gok4; he has just a little more of the Palestinian, Druze and Mozabite components, and a little less of the Sardinian component, what's natural, since he was closer to the entry point of the non-European early farmers.

The late Iron Age Bulgarian has only very slight West Asian admixture. And interestingly, up to K=4, he's very similar to the hunter-gatherers, he seems to have only a little bit of early farmer admixture. (At K=5 and more he also has a lot of the Sardinian components etc, but the same holds true for the hunter-gatherers, so that's because of the hunter-gatherer ancestry in Sardinians etc, and not the other way round.)

These results, if valid, are very interesting, also regarding the question of IE origins, and they give me food for thought. Isn't it striking that hunter-gatherer-like individuals were roaming around in the late Iron Age and that this individual belonged to the upper class?

I would also like to point out that these individuals were not necessarily both Thracians. Not all of the ancient tribes known from the Thracian region were definitely Thracians, partly they may even have been non-IE and related with the pre-Greek Lemnians.

[Kaspias]

Why wouldn't that Iron Age Bulgarian sample from central Bulgaria Thracian? Nobody lived in that region during that time but Thracians.

They may live under Thracians but this doesn't necessarily mean that they are ethnic Thracian, their results are in the same parallel with N Farmers, so where is the Thracian effect?

Farmer remnants.

[War Chef]

Balkans was Sardinian like only in neolithic. Bronze Age samples from Croatia cluster with North/Central Italians and Iberians.

In my eyes Italian and Iberian are still "Sardinian-like". Genetic pull towards South-West Europe.

[Daos777]

Balkans was Sardinian like only in neolithic. Bronze Age samples from Croatia cluster with North/Central Italians and Iberians.

How can those supposed Dacian samples be explained then? Because their results are like they came straight from the cucuteni Tryppilian culture with no indo european admixture.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[War Chef]

They may live under Thracians but this doesn't necessarily mean that they are ethnic Thracian, their results are in the same parallel with N Farmers, so where is the Thracian effect?

Farmer remnants.

You don't understand that the people who identified as Thracian of course were not 100% Yamnaya-like genetically. All Balkan "Indo-Europeans" were indo-europeanized linguistically and not too muc genetically. It's only Corded-Ware culture who got near-complete replaced by Yamnya, not the Balkans. The Balkans was too densely populated with Starcevo, Vinca and Cucuteni people who had a food surplus from farming.