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Thread: Anna Khilkevich: I'm ashamed of Russian men

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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    Other Western Jews don't cluster in West Asia either, specifically the Levant. Using Ashkenazi affinity to Sepharidic Jews, who are similar in terms of where they plot(not too far off one another) anyway, isn't a good argument to gauge their Near Eastern-ness. Sepharidic Jews also have a very strong Med/EEF component as well as a sizeable portion of Steppe from what I've seen.

    Target: Sephardic_Jew
    Distance: 1.5640% / 0.01564018
    47.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    20.6 RUS_Afanasievo
    16.8 Levant_Natufian
    13.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
    2.2 GEO_CHG

    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew
    Distance: 1.3101% / 0.01310063
    44.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    25.4 RUS_Afanasievo
    17.0 Levant_Natufian
    12.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
    1.0 GEO_CHG


    Very similar groups with Ashkies being a bit more steppe-admixed. Both comfortably distinct to Levantine populations hence their higher genetic affinity to Greeks/Italians/Maltese.


    Will you please stop using these genetic components from the neolithic period to describe their ethnic origins, please? These components have existed long before ethnic groups and their genetic clusters ever existed. All of western Eurasian peoples including North Africans have these genetic components and then some. We're talking about their genetic affinities to different ethnic groups, both ancient and modern, belonging to different genetic clusters to give us an idea of their ethnic genetic structure and admixture. Western Jewish peoples are genetically in between the European and West Asian clusters that was formed in the late neolithic, bronze, iron and even during middle ages as well. We're not talking about the neolithic time frame here, okay? You're using the neolithic time frame and their components just to illustrate the genetic structure of today's ethnic group that never existed at that time. Humanity genetically has changed since they're pretty much mixed and assimilated many peoples into their fold that changed their genetic structure and clusters as a whole. Jesus Christ, man.

    You've literally created a new ethnic and racial definition in a whole new level - a time where things like European and West Asian clusters didn't even existed. Armenians are and will never be Whites since they belong to the modern west Asian genetic cluster, not European.

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    Veteran Member FinalFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pine View Post
    You're:

    1. Simply repeating your thesis
    2. What does it mean to be autosomally non-Middle Eastern when the autosomal data is on a clear continuum which includes modern day Europe and Levant? (Question is rhetorical)



    1. This isn't true in every model
    2. You've just created a new standard for ethnic identification - a standard no one here, but Smeagol, will sign off on. No one will consider a half Swede/half Egyptian to be European, even though they may plot in Europe. You're inventing this standard to reach your argument.






    Nothing in that model implies that Ashkenazim probably are mostly European. I'm aware that you love to focus on populations that time has made irrelevant. Neolithic models are hardly relevant here, especially since the Levant has changed a lot since the Neolithic. I understand why you focus on such ancient populations - it's because they're the best way to argue that Armenians are white. This is also why you get upset and think I'm making shit up when I mention that Jews, Armenians, Levantine Arabs etc share some common lineages. A Palestinian on this forum is a good example of that. This is because such lineages are shared from the Bronze Age era, after your Neolithic fantasies. However, for a control, let's try your model on Lebanese Christians:

    Target: Lebanese_Christian
    Distance: 2.7446% / 0.02744620
    43.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    21.8 IRN_Wezmeh_N
    21.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.8 GEO_CHG
    5.0 RUS_Afanasievo

    And despite the choice of reference populations being silly, the Lebanese Christian result is well within range for 40-65% Middle Eastern ancestry in Ashkenazim.

    As for your Armenian oracle, the first results are mostly Turkified Armenians and/or Laz (Greek Trabzon can be modeled as 2/3s Laz, 1/3 Aegean). The closest distinct populations are Georgian Jewish and Assyrian, precisely as I said.

    I'm boggled down with work and won't be able to reply anymore today.
    I've never denied that Jews or Armenians may share common lineages. All populations in West Eurasia have common lineages that they share, I've argued only to the extent in which they are shared.

    Also, what makes using Neolithic populations so wrong in this case? Those same neolithic populations have contributed to the DNA of those from the Bronze Age, and so on. So how would you gauge your EEF or Steppe admix if you exclude these components in your runs? or your CHG? Bronze age populations are a product of those from the Neolithic so I don't see your point here especially when attempting to unmask real admixture. And why are you even making the assumption that I'm trying portray Armenians as some European group genetically? We obviously aren't as our aDNA is a testament to this so I recommend you keep your senseless assumptions to yourself.

    The first results in the Armenian oracles are not only autosomally distinct from Armenians with the (Pontians, Laz, Trabzon Turks, Kurds, Azeris) but also haplogroup-wise which makes your point about Assyrians being the closest distinct population to Armenians moot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    I've never denied that Jews or Armenians may share common lineages. All populations in West Eurasia have common lineages that they share, I've argued only to the extent in which they are shared.

    Also, what makes using Neolithic populations so wrong in this case? Those same neolithic populations have contributed to the DNA of those from the Bronze Age, and so on. So how would you gauge your EEF or Steppe admix if you exclude these components in your runs? or your CHG? Bronze age populations are a product of those from the Neolithic so I don't see your point here especially when attempting to unmask real admixture. And why are you even making the assumption that I'm trying portray Armenians as some European group genetically? We obviously aren't as our aDNA is a testament to this so I recommend you keep your senseless assumptions to yourself.

    The first results in the Armenian oracles are not only autosomally distinct from Armenians with the (Pontians, Laz, Trabzon Turks, Kurds, Azeris) but also haplogroup-wise which makes your point about Assyrians being the closest distinct population to Armenians moot.
    We don't gauge it, but we don't treat them as seperate genetic components relevant to our ethnicity and genetic cluster since a combination of different genetic components in different amounts of it yields to different genetic clusters that is different from one ethnic group to the rest and so on. Modern day humans are genetically different from Bronze age ones who are different from their neolithic ancestors. Western Jewish peoples are in between modern day Europeans and West Asians hence why they're genetically had mixed with the local Europeans to give them the genetic structure of today. In other words, they're a mixture between Canaanite/Levantine peoples and local European groups - not as predominately Europeans genetically as you try to portray them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppo900 View Post
    We don't gauge it, but we don't treat them as seperate genetic components relevant to our ethnicity and genetic cluster since a combination of different genetic components in different amounts of it yields to different genetic clusters that is different from one ethnic group to the rest and so on. Modern day humans are genetically different from Bronze age ones who are different from their neolithic ancestors. Western Jewish peoples are in between modern day Europeans and West Asians hence why they're genetically had mixed with the local Europeans to give them the genetic structure of today. In other words, they're a mixture between Canaanite/Levantine peoples and local European groups - not as predominately Europeans genetically as you try to portray them.
    Great. What bronze age/post bronze age ancient components are ideal to illustrate Ashkenazi aDNA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppo900 View Post


    Will you please stop using these genetic components from the neolithic period to describe their ethnic origins, please? These components have existed long before ethnic groups and their genetic clusters ever existed. All of western Eurasian peoples including North Africans have these genetic components and then some. We're talking about their genetic affinities to different ethnic groups, both ancient and modern, belonging to different genetic clusters to give us an idea of their ethnic genetic structure and admixture. Western Jewish peoples are genetically in between the European and West Asian clusters that was formed in the late neolithic, bronze, iron and even during middle ages as well. We're not talking about the neolithic time frame here, okay? You're using the neolithic time frame and their components just to illustrate the genetic structure of today's ethnic group that never existed at that time. Humanity genetically has changed since they're pretty much mixed and assimilated many peoples into their fold that changed their genetic structure and clusters as a whole. Jesus Christ, man.

    You've literally created a new ethnic and racial definition in a whole new level - a time where things like European and West Asian clusters didn't even existed. Armenians are and will never be Whites since they belong to the modern west Asian genetic cluster, not European.
    Never have I claimed that we belong to the European cluster so I don't see what you're trying to say with this. As far as being white is concerned, I don't view being "white" as exclusively a European thing as it varies from country to country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    Great. What bronze age/post bronze age ancient components are ideal to illustrate Ashkenazi aDNA?
    Here:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....2qA#post620940
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post621108

    You can read the latest posts in the threads to know about the genetic structure of Jewish peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    Never have I claimed that we belong to the European cluster so I don't see what you're trying to say with this. As far as being white is concerned, I don't view being "white" as exclusively a European thing as it varies from country to country.
    Where I live, here in California, the definition of White isn't exclusely based upon European origins. It's not easy to get a consensus about it.

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    Russian Barby Doll said she doesnt date Armenians because her children will have a big nose. LOL. I think the Russians perceive Armenians as a type of non-white but the Americans perceive them as White. Shows how whiteness is a social construct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    I've never denied that Jews or Armenians may share common lineages. All populations in West Eurasia have common lineages that they share, I've argued only to the extent in which they are shared.
    Levantines and Armenians share more lineages than Armenians and European groups. It's not just a West Eurasian sharepot.

    Also, what makes using Neolithic populations so wrong in this case?
    Pre-diasporic Jews weren't a Neolithic population.

    Those same neolithic populations have contributed to the DNA of those from the Bronze Age, and so on. So how would you gauge your EEF or Steppe admix if you exclude these components in your runs? or your CHG?
    I don't care about my Pre-Bronze Age ancestry. It's also not relevant to this problem. Sure, if I cared, I'd use Neolithic references.

    Bronze age populations are a product of those from the Neolithic so I don't see your point here especially when attempting to unmask real admixture.
    So what? Wtf is "real admixture"? We're trying to figure out how Judean and/or Israelite Ashkenazi Jews are. Neither Judeans, nor Israelites were Neolithic; we also don't know their Neolithic makeup. This doesn't help us solve the problem.


    The first results in the Armenian oracles are not only autosomally distinct from Armenians with the (Pontians, Laz, Trabzon Turks, Kurds, Azeris) but also haplogroup-wise which makes your point about Assyrians being the closest distinct population to Armenians moot.
    If you think Armenians are "autosomally distinct" from Assyrians, so are Ashkenazim from Sicilians. Just as Assyrians and Armenians often have overlapping, but different distributions in many models, so do Sicilians and Ashkenazim. And if you wanna talk haplogroups, then the idea of Ashkenazim being a South European population dies instantly. Also, Pontians and Trabzon Turks are largely of West Asian descent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pine View Post
    Levantines and Armenians share more lineages than Armenians and European groups. It's not just a West Eurasian sharepot.



    Pre-diasporic Jews weren't a Neolithic population.



    I don't care about my Pre-Bronze Age ancestry. It's also not relevant to this problem. Sure, if I cared, I'd use Neolithic references.



    So what? Wtf is "real admixture"? We're trying to figure out how Judean and/or Israelite Ashkenazi Jews are. Neither Judeans, nor Israelites were Neolithic; we also don't know their Neolithic makeup. This doesn't help us solve the problem.




    If you think Armenians are "autosomally distinct" from Assyrians, so are Ashkenazim from Sicilians. Just as Assyrians and Armenians often have overlapping, but different distributions in many models, so do Sicilians and Ashkenazim. And if you wanna talk haplogroups, then the idea of Ashkenazim being a South European population dies instantly. Also, Pontians and Trabzon Turks are largely of West Asian descent.
    I already had explained to him earlier that we shouldn't use separate neolithic genetic components to get the overall picture of modern Jews and anyone else since we're not the same as those neolithic peoples, and all of western Eurasians are a mixture of different neolithic genetic components in varying levels and so on. To know how native Levantines are today's inhabitants of the Levant which includes Jews as well we should use bronze and iron age periods samples than using from the neolithic period where such ethnic groups and their respective genetic clusters didn't exist.

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