Why do Scythian samples found in Ukraine (and EE in general) plot European?

**vbnetkhio** · 12-09-2019, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by ixulescu

I don't care about modern Iranic.

But I'm interested to find out whether Scythians living in present day Ukraine 2500 years ago were mostly Iranic or European.

they can be modelled as Bronze age Hungarians, which were pretty similar to modern Hungarians + something more eastern, Sarmatian like.

Code:

       [,1]                                                                           [,2]    
  [1,] "27.6 %  RUS_Progress_En  +  72.4 %  Scythian_HUN"                             "0.0094"
  [2,] "48.3 %  HUN_LBA  +  51.7 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Urals"                              "0.0096"
  [3,] "47.6 %  KAZ_Chanchar2_LBA  +  52.4 %  Scythian_HUN"                           "0.0098"
  [4,] "26.8 %  RUS_Vonyuchka_En  +  73.2 %  Scythian_HUN"                            "0.0101"
  [5,] "59.3 %  CZE_Early_Slav  +  40.7 %  KAZ_Molaly_LBA"                            "0.0101"
  [6,] "53.1 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  46.9 %  KAZ_Kangju"                               "0.0103"
  [7,] "49.9 %  HUN_LBA  +  50.1 %  KAZ_Wusun"                                        "0.0104"
  [8,] "37.9 %  HUN_Mako_EBA  +  62.1 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Urals"                         "0.0104"
  [9,] "28.4 %  RUS_Afanasievo  +  71.6 %  Scythian_HUN"                              "0.0105"
 [10,] "49.5 %  HUN_LBA  +  50.5 %  KAZ_Molaly_LBA"                                   "0.0106"
 [11,] "70.7 %  Scythian_HUN  +  29.3 %  Yamnaya_RUS_Samara"                          "0.0106"
 [12,] "30.1 %  RUS_Poltavka  +  69.9 %  Scythian_HUN"                                "0.0106"
 [13,] "68.9 %  Scythian_HUN  +  31.1 %  Yamnaya_UKR"                                 "0.0107"
 [14,] "29.1 %  RUS_Catacomb  +  70.9 %  Scythian_HUN"                                "0.0108"
 [15,] "48.8 %  HUN_LBA  +  51.2 %  KAZ_Kangju"                                       "0.0108"
 [16,] "30.3 %  RUS_Kubano-Tersk  +  69.7 %  Scythian_HUN"                            "0.0108"
 [17,] "70.1 %  Scythian_HUN  +  29.9 %  Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia"                        "0.0109"
 [18,] "37.6 %  Anatolia_IA  +  62.4 %  Corded_Ware_Baltic"                           "0.0109"
 [19,] "54.5 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  45.5 %  Saka_Tian_Shan"                           "0.0109"
 [20,] "39.4 %  HUN_Mako_EBA  +  60.6 %  KAZ_Wusun"                                   "0.0111"
 [21,] "51.2 %  HUN_LBA  +  48.8 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe"                     "0.0111"
 [22,] "52 %  HUN_LBA  +  48 %  Sarmatian_KAZ"                                        "0.0112"
 [23,] "73.1 %  Scythian_HUN  +  26.9 %  Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke"                          "0.0112"
 [24,] "54.4 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  45.6 %  Hun_Tian_Shan"                            "0.0112"
 [25,] "59.3 %  CZE_Early_Slav  +  40.7 %  KAZ_Katon_Karagay_LBA"                     "0.0113"
 [26,] "53.9 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  46.1 %  KAZ_Molaly_LBA"                           "0.0113"
 [27,] "46.1 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Urals  +  53.9 %  Scythian_HUN"                         "0.0114"
 [28,] "69.1 %  HUN_LBA  +  30.9 %  KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA"                                 "0.0114"
 [29,] "38.2 %  HUN_Mako_EBA  +  61.8 %  KAZ_Kangju"                                  "0.0114"
 [30,] "56.5 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  43.5 %  Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_IA"            "0.0114"

or with modern populations:

Code:

      [,1]               [,2]    
 [1,] "Austrian"         "0.019" 
 [2,] "Hungarian"        "0.0198"
 [3,] "German_East"      "0.0204"
 [4,] "Czech"            "0.0204"
 [5,] "Croatian"         "0.0211"
 [6,] "Tatar_Mishar"     "0.0218"
 [7,] "German"           "0.0225"
 [8,] "Tatar_Lipka"      "0.0227"
 [9,] "Slovakian"        "0.0229"
[10,] "Slovenian"        "0.0229"
[11,] "Tatar_Kazan"      "0.0234"
[12,] "Polish"           "0.0248"
[13,] "Bosnian"          "0.0249"
[14,] "Turkish_Balkans"  "0.0253"
[15,] "Swedish"          "0.0255"
[16,] "Mordovian"        "0.0255"
[17,] "Montenegrin"      "0.0261"
[18,] "Ingrian"          "0.0262"
[19,] "Finnish"          "0.0264"
[20,] "Russian_Kostroma" "0.0267"
      [,1]                                              [,2]    
 [1,] "67 %  Czech  +  33 %  Tajik_Shugnan"             "0.0113"
 [2,] "66.2 %  Czech  +  33.8 %  Tajik_Rushan"          "0.0113"
 [3,] "67.9 %  Czech  +  32.1 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"       "0.0113"
 [4,] "67.3 %  Hungarian  +  32.7 %  Tajik_Rushan"      "0.0117"
 [5,] "68.2 %  German_East  +  31.8 %  Tajik_Ishkashim" "0.0118"
 [6,] "68.2 %  Hungarian  +  31.8 %  Tajik_Shugnan"     "0.0118"
 [7,] "66.1 %  Croatian  +  33.9 %  Tajik_Shugnan"      "0.0118"
 [8,] "67.4 %  German_East  +  32.6 %  Tajik_Shugnan"   "0.0118"
 [9,] "65.3 %  Croatian  +  34.7 %  Tajik_Rushan"       "0.0119"
[10,] "69.2 %  Hungarian  +  30.8 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"   "0.0119"
[11,] "62.8 %  Slovakian  +  37.2 %  Tajik_Rushan"      "0.0119"
[12,] "66.6 %  German_East  +  33.4 %  Tajik_Rushan"    "0.012" 
[13,] "69.1 %  Austrian  +  30.9 %  Tajik_Rushan"       "0.012" 
[14,] "70.9 %  Austrian  +  29.1 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"    "0.0121"
[15,] "61.2 %  Polish  +  38.8 %  Tajik_Shugnan"        "0.0121"
[16,] "62.8 %  Slovenian  +  37.2 %  Tajik_Rushan"      "0.0121"
[17,] "66 %  Czech  +  34 %  Tajik"                     "0.0121"
[18,] "70 %  Austrian  +  30 %  Tajik_Shugnan"          "0.0121"
[19,] "60.3 %  Polish  +  39.7 %  Tajik_Rushan"         "0.0122"
[20,] "67.3 %  Croatian  +  32.7 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"    "0.0122"
      [,1]                                            [,2]    
 [1,] "50% %  German  +  50% %  Tatar_Lipka"          "0.0154"
 [2,] "50% %  German  +  50% %  Tatar_Kazan"          "0.0157"
 [3,] "50% %  Estonian  +  50% %  Turkmen"            "0.0159"
 [4,] "50% %  Lithuanian_PA  +  50% %  Tajik"         "0.0159"
 [5,] "50% %  Estonian  +  50% %  Tajik"              "0.0159"
 [6,] "50% %  Ingrian  +  50% %  Turkish_Balkans"     "0.016" 
 [7,] "50% %  Slovakian  +  50% %  Tatar_Lipka"       "0.016" 
 [8,] "50% %  German  +  50% %  Tatar_Mishar"         "0.0161"
 [9,] "50% %  Lithuanian_PA  +  50% %  Turkmen"       "0.0162"
[10,] "50% %  Lithuanian_VA  +  50% %  Tajik_Shugnan" "0.0163"
[11,] "50% %  Finnish  +  50% %  Turkish_Balkans"     "0.0164"
[12,] "50% %  French_Nord  +  50% %  Russian_Kursk"   "0.0165"
[13,] "50% %  Belarusian  +  50% %  Tajik"            "0.0165"
[14,] "50% %  Russian_Smolensk  +  50% %  Tajik"      "0.0166"
[15,] "50% %  Swedish  +  50% %  Turkish_Balkans"     "0.0167"
[16,] "50% %  Estonian  +  50% %  Uzbek"              "0.0168"
[17,] "50% %  French_Alsace  +  50% %  Mordovian"     "0.0169"
[18,] "50% %  French_Nord  +  50% %  Russian_Orel"    "0.0169"
[19,] "50% %  Mordovian  +  50% %  Swedish"           "0.017" 
[20,] "50% %  Slovenian  +  50% %  Tatar_Kazan"       "0.017"

**Annihilus** · 12-09-2019, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

Slavs were formed around 0 AD in the Zarubintsy culture, Scythians are much older than that.

Proto-slavs then. In any case scythians and slavs overlap to a great extent.

**TheOldNorth** · 12-09-2019, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Annihilus

Proto-slavs then. In any case scythians and slavs overlap to a great extent.

Genetically, maybe, linguistically barley, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian are closer too each other then any other but still very distant

**~~War Chef~~** · 12-09-2019, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by ixulescu

Ok, but here's my problem.
I want to know who the Scythians were before 1 AD. I know Scythians mixed with Slavs and Goths later on. But who were the Scythians and Sarmatians before that?

One of the guys I match with ..........
LS13 Early Sarmatian Russia (550 BC):

1. East_Finnish (16.93)
2. Czech (18.26)
3. Finnish (18.44)
4. Southwest_Finnish (18.49)
5. Kargopol_Russian (19.06)
6. North_Swedish (20.80)
7. East_German (20.98)
8. South_Polish (21.02)

**~~War Chef~~** · 12-09-2019, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

they can be modelled as Bronze age Hungarians, which were pretty similar to modern Hungarians + something more eastern, Sarmatian like.

Code:

       [,1]                                                                           [,2]    
  [1,] "27.6 %  RUS_Progress_En  +  72.4 %  Scythian_HUN"                             "0.0094"
  [2,] "48.3 %  HUN_LBA  +  51.7 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Urals"                              "0.0096"
  [3,] "47.6 %  KAZ_Chanchar2_LBA  +  52.4 %  Scythian_HUN"                           "0.0098"
  [4,] "26.8 %  RUS_Vonyuchka_En  +  73.2 %  Scythian_HUN"                            "0.0101"
  [5,] "59.3 %  CZE_Early_Slav  +  40.7 %  KAZ_Molaly_LBA"                            "0.0101"
  [6,] "53.1 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  46.9 %  KAZ_Kangju"                               "0.0103"
  [7,] "49.9 %  HUN_LBA  +  50.1 %  KAZ_Wusun"                                        "0.0104"
  [8,] "37.9 %  HUN_Mako_EBA  +  62.1 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Urals"                         "0.0104"
  [9,] "28.4 %  RUS_Afanasievo  +  71.6 %  Scythian_HUN"                              "0.0105"
 [10,] "49.5 %  HUN_LBA  +  50.5 %  KAZ_Molaly_LBA"                                   "0.0106"
 [11,] "70.7 %  Scythian_HUN  +  29.3 %  Yamnaya_RUS_Samara"                          "0.0106"
 [12,] "30.1 %  RUS_Poltavka  +  69.9 %  Scythian_HUN"                                "0.0106"
 [13,] "68.9 %  Scythian_HUN  +  31.1 %  Yamnaya_UKR"                                 "0.0107"
 [14,] "29.1 %  RUS_Catacomb  +  70.9 %  Scythian_HUN"                                "0.0108"
 [15,] "48.8 %  HUN_LBA  +  51.2 %  KAZ_Kangju"                                       "0.0108"
 [16,] "30.3 %  RUS_Kubano-Tersk  +  69.7 %  Scythian_HUN"                            "0.0108"
 [17,] "70.1 %  Scythian_HUN  +  29.9 %  Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia"                        "0.0109"
 [18,] "37.6 %  Anatolia_IA  +  62.4 %  Corded_Ware_Baltic"                           "0.0109"
 [19,] "54.5 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  45.5 %  Saka_Tian_Shan"                           "0.0109"
 [20,] "39.4 %  HUN_Mako_EBA  +  60.6 %  KAZ_Wusun"                                   "0.0111"
 [21,] "51.2 %  HUN_LBA  +  48.8 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe"                     "0.0111"
 [22,] "52 %  HUN_LBA  +  48 %  Sarmatian_KAZ"                                        "0.0112"
 [23,] "73.1 %  Scythian_HUN  +  26.9 %  Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke"                          "0.0112"
 [24,] "54.4 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  45.6 %  Hun_Tian_Shan"                            "0.0112"
 [25,] "59.3 %  CZE_Early_Slav  +  40.7 %  KAZ_Katon_Karagay_LBA"                     "0.0113"
 [26,] "53.9 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  46.1 %  KAZ_Molaly_LBA"                           "0.0113"
 [27,] "46.1 %  Sarmatian_RUS_Urals  +  53.9 %  Scythian_HUN"                         "0.0114"
 [28,] "69.1 %  HUN_LBA  +  30.9 %  KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA"                                 "0.0114"
 [29,] "38.2 %  HUN_Mako_EBA  +  61.8 %  KAZ_Kangju"                                  "0.0114"
 [30,] "56.5 %  HUN_Avar_Szolad  +  43.5 %  Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_IA"            "0.0114"

or with modern populations:

Code:

      [,1]               [,2]    
 [1,] "Austrian"         "0.019" 
 [2,] "Hungarian"        "0.0198"
 [3,] "German_East"      "0.0204"
 [4,] "Czech"            "0.0204"
 [5,] "Croatian"         "0.0211"
 [6,] "Tatar_Mishar"     "0.0218"
 [7,] "German"           "0.0225"
 [8,] "Tatar_Lipka"      "0.0227"
 [9,] "Slovakian"        "0.0229"
[10,] "Slovenian"        "0.0229"
[11,] "Tatar_Kazan"      "0.0234"
[12,] "Polish"           "0.0248"
[13,] "Bosnian"          "0.0249"
[14,] "Turkish_Balkans"  "0.0253"
[15,] "Swedish"          "0.0255"
[16,] "Mordovian"        "0.0255"
[17,] "Montenegrin"      "0.0261"
[18,] "Ingrian"          "0.0262"
[19,] "Finnish"          "0.0264"
[20,] "Russian_Kostroma" "0.0267"
      [,1]                                              [,2]    
 [1,] "67 %  Czech  +  33 %  Tajik_Shugnan"             "0.0113"
 [2,] "66.2 %  Czech  +  33.8 %  Tajik_Rushan"          "0.0113"
 [3,] "67.9 %  Czech  +  32.1 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"       "0.0113"
 [4,] "67.3 %  Hungarian  +  32.7 %  Tajik_Rushan"      "0.0117"
 [5,] "68.2 %  German_East  +  31.8 %  Tajik_Ishkashim" "0.0118"
 [6,] "68.2 %  Hungarian  +  31.8 %  Tajik_Shugnan"     "0.0118"
 [7,] "66.1 %  Croatian  +  33.9 %  Tajik_Shugnan"      "0.0118"
 [8,] "67.4 %  German_East  +  32.6 %  Tajik_Shugnan"   "0.0118"
 [9,] "65.3 %  Croatian  +  34.7 %  Tajik_Rushan"       "0.0119"
[10,] "69.2 %  Hungarian  +  30.8 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"   "0.0119"
[11,] "62.8 %  Slovakian  +  37.2 %  Tajik_Rushan"      "0.0119"
[12,] "66.6 %  German_East  +  33.4 %  Tajik_Rushan"    "0.012" 
[13,] "69.1 %  Austrian  +  30.9 %  Tajik_Rushan"       "0.012" 
[14,] "70.9 %  Austrian  +  29.1 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"    "0.0121"
[15,] "61.2 %  Polish  +  38.8 %  Tajik_Shugnan"        "0.0121"
[16,] "62.8 %  Slovenian  +  37.2 %  Tajik_Rushan"      "0.0121"
[17,] "66 %  Czech  +  34 %  Tajik"                     "0.0121"
[18,] "70 %  Austrian  +  30 %  Tajik_Shugnan"          "0.0121"
[19,] "60.3 %  Polish  +  39.7 %  Tajik_Rushan"         "0.0122"
[20,] "67.3 %  Croatian  +  32.7 %  Tajik_Ishkashim"    "0.0122"
      [,1]                                            [,2]    
 [1,] "50% %  German  +  50% %  Tatar_Lipka"          "0.0154"
 [2,] "50% %  German  +  50% %  Tatar_Kazan"          "0.0157"
 [3,] "50% %  Estonian  +  50% %  Turkmen"            "0.0159"
 [4,] "50% %  Lithuanian_PA  +  50% %  Tajik"         "0.0159"
 [5,] "50% %  Estonian  +  50% %  Tajik"              "0.0159"
 [6,] "50% %  Ingrian  +  50% %  Turkish_Balkans"     "0.016" 
 [7,] "50% %  Slovakian  +  50% %  Tatar_Lipka"       "0.016" 
 [8,] "50% %  German  +  50% %  Tatar_Mishar"         "0.0161"
 [9,] "50% %  Lithuanian_PA  +  50% %  Turkmen"       "0.0162"
[10,] "50% %  Lithuanian_VA  +  50% %  Tajik_Shugnan" "0.0163"
[11,] "50% %  Finnish  +  50% %  Turkish_Balkans"     "0.0164"
[12,] "50% %  French_Nord  +  50% %  Russian_Kursk"   "0.0165"
[13,] "50% %  Belarusian  +  50% %  Tajik"            "0.0165"
[14,] "50% %  Russian_Smolensk  +  50% %  Tajik"      "0.0166"
[15,] "50% %  Swedish  +  50% %  Turkish_Balkans"     "0.0167"
[16,] "50% %  Estonian  +  50% %  Uzbek"              "0.0168"
[17,] "50% %  French_Alsace  +  50% %  Mordovian"     "0.0169"
[18,] "50% %  French_Nord  +  50% %  Russian_Orel"    "0.0169"
[19,] "50% %  Mordovian  +  50% %  Swedish"           "0.017" 
[20,] "50% %  Slovenian  +  50% %  Tatar_Kazan"       "0.017"

There was Celts in Ukraine during this time.

**Kyp** · 12-09-2019, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Annihilus

Proto-slavs then. In any case scythians and slavs overlap to a great extent.

That's like saying Japanese are Proto-Turks

**Annihilus** · 12-09-2019, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kyp Snow

That's like saying Japanese are Proto-Turks

I don't understand

**Kyp** · 12-09-2019, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Annihilus

I don't understand

Just because they plot close to Slavs doesn't mean Iranic ancestors were Slavs. Also Slavs differ greatly in terms of CHG ancestry.

**Annihilus** · 12-09-2019, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Kyp Snow

Just because they plot close to Slavs doesn't mean Iranic ancestors were Slavs. Also Slavs differ greatly in terms of CHG ancestry.

Slavs and scythians don't have common ancestors?

**Kyp** · 12-09-2019, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Annihilus

Slavs and scythians don't have common ancestors?

They do. Just like all other IE populations.

Thread: Why do Scythian samples found in Ukraine (and EE in general) plot European?

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