Ancient Fennoscandian genomes reveal origin and spread of Siberian ancestry in Europe

[Lemminkäinen]

@östsvensk

I can't use Dodecad, because I am a part of his reference data and the result would be distorted by the "calculator effect".

"Here's the good news: the Eurogenes calculators don't suffer from the calculator effect. That's because the reference samples are treated in the same way as the test samples, so there's only one variable: ancestry. What this means is that when you run a modern or ancient genome with a Eurogenes calculator you can confidently compare the result to those of the reference samples (provided enough SNPs are used), and then be able to make sensible inferences about its genetic origins."

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search...culator+effect

Eurogenes EUTEST

Population
SOUTH_BALTIC 23.82 Pct
EAST_EURO 25.18 Pct
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.12 Pct
ATLANTIC 15.63 Pct
WEST_MED 3.80 Pct
EAST_MED 0.05 Pct
WEST_ASIAN 1.84 Pct
MIDDLE_EASTERN -
SOUTH_ASIAN 1.39 Pct
EAST_AFRICAN -
EAST_ASIAN 0.25 Pct
SIBERIAN 3.92 Pct
WEST_AFRICAN -

MDLP K16 Modern

Population
Amerindian 1.34 Pct
Ancestor -
Steppe 22.50 Pct
Indian 0.36 Pct
Arctic 0.48 Pct
Australian -
Caucasian 14.71 Pct
EastAfrican -
NorthEastEuropean 33.56 Pct
NearEast -
Neolithic 22.87 Pct
NorthAfrican -
Oceanic 0.71 Pct
Siberian 3.46 Pct
SouthEastAsian -
Subsaharian -


MDLP gives a bit misleading results, because Northeast European already includes Steppe and Neolithic proportions.

[Leto]

@Lemminkäinen
Do you think the Indo-Europeans (Fatyanovo-Balanovo) in Central Russia were later Uralicized by Uralic speakers coming from the East? How would the alleged FU-speaking tribes around Moscow be otherwise explained?

The pink area

[Östsvensk]

@östsvesk

I can't use Dodecad, because I am a part of his reference data and the result would be distorted by the "calculator effect".

"Here's the good news: the Eurogenes calculators don't suffer from the calculator effect. That's because the reference samples are treated in the same way as the test samples, so there's only one variable: ancestry. What this means is that when you run a modern or ancient genome with a Eurogenes calculator you can confidently compare the result to those of the reference samples (provided enough SNPs are used), and then be able to make sensible inferences about its genetic origins."

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search...culator+effect

Eurogenes EUTEST

Population
SOUTH_BALTIC 23.82 Pct
EAST_EURO 25.18 Pct
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.12 Pct
ATLANTIC 15.63 Pct
WEST_MED 3.80 Pct
EAST_MED 0.05 Pct
WEST_ASIAN 1.84 Pct
MIDDLE_EASTERN -
SOUTH_ASIAN 1.39 Pct
EAST_AFRICAN -
EAST_ASIAN 0.25 Pct
SIBERIAN 3.92 Pct
WEST_AFRICAN -

MDLP K16 Modern

Population
Amerindian 1.34 Pct
Ancestor -
Steppe 22.50 Pct
Indian 0.36 Pct
Arctic 0.48 Pct
Australian -
Caucasian 14.71 Pct
EastAfrican -
NorthEastEuropean 33.56 Pct
NearEast -
Neolithic 22.87 Pct
NorthAfrican -
Oceanic 0.71 Pct
Siberian 3.46 Pct
SouthEastAsian -
Subsaharian -


MDLP gives a bit misleading results, because Northeast European already includes Steppe and Neolithic proportions.

According to results that Feiichy ran and posted in another thread, the Komi were 11% Nganasan and they pull nearer to Siberians (but much closer to Europeans) on that PCA that I posted. Finnish-speaking populations are still with the Europeans. Komi are exotic whites, basically.

[Lemminkäinen]

According to results that Feiichy ran and posted in another thread, the Komi were 11% Nganasan and they pull nearer to Siberians (but much closer to Europeans) on that PCA that I posted. Finnish-speaking populations are still with the Europeans. Komi are exotic whites, basically.

Yeah, Komis are a weird group including western and Siberian admixtures. I have a feeling that they are not a homogeneous group and consist of two of more genetic profiles speaking same native language. So the sample group gives in some tests results difficult to explain.

You another question about Volga people. I have no idea how for instance Mordvas can be where they are nowadays. Did they come from east of west? They speak FU language, but are genetically very close Russians. In my opinion people shouldn't link together ethnic groups only by some minor admixture, like Siberian. North Russian have Siberian admixture regardless of the language they speak, as well as many other people around Siberia. Is it so that people speaking FU languages have Siberian admixture because they speak FU language or is the Siberian admixture common everywhere near Siberia? The answer is either one, depending on where you place your attention.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

@Lemminkäinen What's your take on Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov being Uralic?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...-speakers.html

[Östsvensk]

Yeah, Komis are a weird group including western and Siberian admixtures. I have a feeling that they are not a homogeneous group and consist of two of more genetic profiles speaking same native language. So the sample group gives in some tests results difficult to explain.

You another question about Volga people. I have no idea how for instance Mordvas can be where they are nowadays. Did they come from east of west? They speak FU language, but are genetically very close Russians. In my opinion people shouldn't link together ethnic groups only by some minor admixture, like Siberian. North Russian have Siberian admixture regardless of the language they speak, as well as many other people around Siberia. Is it so that people speaking FU languages have Siberian admixture because they speak FU language or is the Siberian admixture common everywhere near Siberia? The answer is either one, depending on where you place your attention.

On the MDLP K23b spreadsheet, Mordovians seem pretty similar to a distinct group of (Northern?) Russians, yes. Very little European early farmer and very high European Hunter-Gatherer. They both have 5% East Siberian, although most Russians lack this. Apart from that, quite similar.

[Lemminkäinen]

@Lemminkäinen What's your take on Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov being Uralic?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...-speakers.html

That's interesting. Two of Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov samples belong to N1c1 and are straight ancestral for all N1c1 around the Baltic Sea region. We have no other ancient samples in this category, but linguists obviously deny this possibility and suggest that we will sooner or later find ancient ancestral samples for Baltic N1c1 somewhere near Volga. We really need now those Volga samples, otherwise linguists and also many geneticists will have hard times. Everyone now waits for those finds, because Volga has been a winning horse for many of us.

[Leto]

According to results that Feiichy ran and posted in another thread, the Komi were 11% Nganasan and they pull nearer to Siberians (but much closer to Europeans) on that PCA that I posted. Finnish-speaking populations are still with the Europeans. Komi are exotic whites, basically.

The dozen of academic samples I have range from 15% to 21% Mongoloid with an average of ~18%. So yeah, borderline white if you want to use the term.

In terms of linguistics the Komi and Udmurts are believed to have split sometime after 800 AD. The former would have migrated northwards to what is now the Rep of Komi and the latter would have remained in the Volga Bulgar sphere of influence.

[Harkonnen]

On the MDLP K23b spreadsheet, Mordovians seem pretty similar to a distinct group of (Northern?) Russians, yes. Very little European early farmer and very high European Hunter-Gatherer. They both have 5% East Siberian, although most Russians lack this. Apart from that, quite similar.

That is absolutely false statement. Mordovians have Turkic Mongolian ancestry.

[Harkonnen]

The dozen of academic samples I have range from 15% to 21% Mongoloid with an average of ~18%. So yeah, borderline white if you want to use the term.

In terms of linguistics the Komi and Udmurts are believed to have split sometime after 800 AD. The former would have migrated northwards to what is now the Rep of Komi and the latter would have remained in the Volga Bulgar sphere of influence.

In reality they have much more Mongolian ancestry. Also Komi's are in big Picture same as Finns genetically. So if Komi's are not white. Neither are Finns.