Poland: a second Germany ?

[Satem]

We don't have immigrants because we don't allow it, other Europeans allow it and handout welfare lottery tickets

Tell it to over milion of Ukrainians living here, oh and we have more and more immigrants(from India and Africa) in bigger cities working for example in Uber.

[Tchek]

Once staunch Catholic countries and regions, when they turn secular, experience a golden phase of development and enrichment.
This has been observed in Flanders, Ireland, Catalonia, Italian Veneto, Austria, Upper Bavaria, French Vendée etc.
Because they opened up to modernization whilst retaining a certain Catholic social discipline.

Catholic social discipline or rather post-agricultural discipline (by opposition to post-industrial discipline, or lack thereof). Agricultural zones have a strong social fabric, strong families and cooperatives.
Farmers used to have a high capacity of delayed gratification. You sow your seed, and you reap it after several month. Plodding patience. Farmers tend to hoard and take little risks (in a way it's the opposite of Weber's theory).
Post-agricultural zones reflect this. In a secular, post-agricultural context, they are richer in this phase of capitalism because of this ethic. Maybe during Weber times, taking risks was more profitable. Post-catholics/farmers have high patience and high savings.
Post-industrial zones are full of people of low capacity of delayed gratification, because industrial jobs used to be more immediate. Consumerism, drug-abuse are now rife in those zones.
It's all about the farmer's ethic.

[pulstar]

This is the problem with Poland.
Polish individuals are generally very clever and capable.
But as a political entity, the Polish State has always been extraordinarily stupid.

That's precisely not the problem with Poland. Trusting exclusively one or another side doesn't work. It isn't powerful enough to make their own side, but on their way to go there they should not be exclusive.

[Ülev]

I posted this here as a compliment to Poland - you come in and you start on talking rot about your neighbors. What he didn't mention btw. is that your Polish "miracle" has been paid for by the Germans, British, French, Danish, Dutch and Swedish taxpayers through 25 years of consistent EEC/EU subsidies. Another source would be remittances through undercutting local labour and, as I have noticed in my own apartment when the association decided to do it up, the expression "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys", still holds merit as, two years later, we're still left with substantial damage that we have had (and in some areas still have) to pay for ourselves to have it fixed (by Dutchmen - who do a proper job).

Forderungen werden laut, die Zahlung von EU-Geldern an vertragsbrüchige EU-Staaten wie Polen einzustellen. So sagte etwa der Grünen-Europaabgeordnete Daniel Freund zu t-online.de: "Wer in dieser Form an unseren Grundwerten sägt, muss mit Sanktionen aus Brüssel rechnen. Wenn demokratische und rechtsstaatliche Grundprinzipien zurückgebaut werden, müssen EU-Fördermittel gestrichen werden."

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/...u-geldern.html

[The Lawspeaker]

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/...u-geldern.html

I actually agree with that: time to put that money into our own economies instead.

[rothaer]

Poland was the country that suffered the most from Second World War. (...)

I've often heard that.

This is just applicable if you count millions of killed Jewish civilians to Polish losses. But after Poles don't indentify with Jews, this seems somewhat weird. Also, you would hardly count killed ethnic Germans in Poland as a suffering of Poland.

Actually, the ethnic Polish losses in WWII are small compared to the German, Russian, Belarussian and Ukrainian (Soviet) losses. That is easy to explain as Poland not much took part in the war. Poland was conquered within a month and compared to an ongoing war the casualties and destruction of the country were comparably very small. Also, when the Russians came in 1944/45 the destructions in Poland and Polish casualties - when joining Russians in fighting for the last months of WWII - were small. Big cities like Lodz and Crakow were hardly damaged at all. Basically just Warsaw was destroyed in the context of that Polish uprising. (The uprising was completely unnecessary, as it was clear that Germany lost the war and the Russians would conquer it all anyhow as soon as they collected enough supply for their next advance.) Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Germany were all much more destroyed, the latter by the various city bombings. So also Eastern Germany, that was later robbed by Poland, was heavily destroyed, but that can hardly be called a suffering of Poland.

[Lucas]

I've often heard that.

This is just applicable if you count millions of killed Jewish civilians to Polish losses. But after Poles don't indentify with Jews, this seems somewhat weird. Also, you would hardly count killed ethnic Germans in Poland as a suffering of Poland.

Actually, the ethnic Polish losses in WWII are small compared to the German, Russian, Belarussian and Ukrainian (Soviet) losses. That is easy to explain as Poland not much took part in the war. Poland was conquered within a month and compared to an ongoing war the casualties and destruction of the country were comparably very small. Also, when the Russians came in 1944/45 the destructions in Poland and Polish casualties - when joining Russians in fighting for the last months of WWII - were small. Big cities like Lodz and Crakow were hardly damaged at all. Basically just Warsaw was destroyed in the context of that Polish uprising. (The uprising was completely unnecessary, as it was clear that Germany lost the war and the Russians would conquer it all anyhow as soon as they collected enough supply for their next advance.) Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Germany were all much more destroyed, the latter by the various city bombings. So also Eastern Germany, that was later robbed by Poland, was heavily destroyed, but that can hardly be called a suffering of Poland.

No, among about 6 milions Polish losses there were 3 milions Jews, rest were Poles
Even without them we would be on 4th place not 3rd (after Indonesia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties or exequo with Japan.
And yes Germany had more casualties but it was solely your fault, just you should't start the war... And you can blame mainly Soviets for that loss.

In Polish stats of course Germans from lands regained after 1945 weren't counted, no one said that.
It is less clear what about Belarussians and Ukrainians from pre-war Kresy but apparently after Russian annexion after 17.09.1939 they weren't counted as Polish citizens.
Of course most casualties were not from 1939 campain where 66,000 soldiers were killed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland
and also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...ties_of_Poland

1939 Military Campaign-About 200,000[3] Polish civilians were killed in the 1939 Military Campaign.

but from occupation policy of Germans during 5 next years.

The Polish Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) estimates total deaths under the German occupation at 5,470,000 to 5,670,000 Jews and Poles,[8] 2,770,000 Poles,[9] 2.7 to 2.9 million Polish Jews [10] According to IPN research there were also 150,000 victims of Soviet repression.[11]

So with German and Soviet victims it was about 2 900 000 Poles killed.

BTW we fought with Germany only till 16.09 and after 17.09 Polish interior Kresy which were supposed to be place for stronghold against Germans were annexed by Soviets so we lost strategic depth. Even considering this Poland fight till 5 October https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kock_(1939)
Not to mention German army was twice more numerous and better equipped and still we could fight against them more then month.


France fought (in real battle since May 1940, not phony war before) just not even two weeks more
Poland

France

And France had many months to be prepared, also they received British corps help. And had one of the biggest armies in the world (it was realised that on paper only, like some other now hehe). Their dead losses were also enormous comparing to Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

[Lucas]

BTW Battle of Kock wasn't lost, Kleeberg (commander) was just run out of ammo.
Irony that last fighting Polish commander was of German descent...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Kleeberg
Franciszek Kleeberg (1 February 1888, Tarnopol – 5 April 1941 near Dresden) was a Polish general. He served in the Austro-Hungarian Army before joining the Polish Legions in World War I and later the Polish Army. During the German Invasion of Poland he commanded Independent Operational Group Polesie (Polish: Samodzielna Grupa Operacyjna "Polesie"). He never lost a battle in the Invasion of Poland, although he was eventually forced to surrender after his forces ran out of ammunition. Imprisoned in Oflag IV-B Koenigstein, he died in hospital in Dresden on 5 April 1941 and was buried there.

Early life
General Franciszek Kleeberg was born on February 1, 1888 in Tarnopol (then part of Austro-Hungarian Empire, next Tarnopol in interwar Poland again, now Ternopil Ukraine). He was of German and Swedish ancestry on his paternal side.

[rothaer]

No, among about 6 milions Polish losses there were 3 milions Jews, rest were Poles
Even without them we would be on 4th place not 3rd (after Indonesia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties or exequo with Japan.
And yes Germany had more casualties but it was solely your fault, just you should't start the war... And you can blame mainly Soviets for that loss.

In Polish stats of course Germans from lands regained after 1945 weren't counted, no one said that.
It is less clear what about Belarussians and Ukrainians from pre-war Kresy but apparently after Russian annexion after 17.09.1939 they weren't counted as Polish citizens.
Of course most casualties were not from 1939 campain where 66,000 soldiers were killed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland
and also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...ties_of_Poland

but from occupation policy of Germans during 5 next years.

So with German and Soviet victims it was about 2 900 000 Poles killed.

BTW we fought with Germany only till 16.09 and after 17.09 Polish interior Kresy which were supposed to be place for stronghold against Germans were annexed by Soviets so we lost strategic depth. Even considering this Poland fight till 5 October https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kock_(1939)
Not to mention German army was twice more numerous and better equipped and still we could fight against them more then month.


France fought (in real battle since May 1940, not phony war before) just not even two weeks more
Poland

France

And France had many months to be prepared, also they received British corps help. And had one of the biggest armies in the world (it was realised that on paper only, like some other now hehe). Their dead losses were also enormous comparing to Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

"This figure was disputed when the communist system collapsed by the Polish historian Czesław Łuczak who put total losses at 6.0 million; 3.0 million Jews, 2.0 million ethnic Poles, and 1.0 million Polish citizens from the other ethnic groups not included in the 1947 report on war damages.[2][3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...ties_of_Poland

I think this figure with about 2 million ethnic Poles seems plausible. (I just wonder, are ethnic Germans (Volksliste Abt. 1+2) with Polish citizenship among them, that died as Wehrmacht soldiers? Or as soldiers in the Polish armies? Are ethnic Poles (Volksliste Abt. 3) among them, that died in Wehrmacht service?)

I just talked about figures, not about blame, bravery or warefare performance. If you like to explain the latter f. i., the battle of Bautzen (1945) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bautzen_(1945) would be an interesting topic.

[rothaer]

BTW Battle of Kock wasn't lost, Kleeberg (commander) was just run out of ammo.

I see, lol. Germany then also didn't lose WWII, I guess. It just also ran out of fuel, ammo, planes, tanks etc...

Irony that last fighting Polish commander was of German descent...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Kleeberg
Franciszek Kleeberg (1 February 1888, Tarnopol – 5 April 1941 near Dresden) was a Polish general. He served in the Austro-Hungarian Army before joining the Polish Legions in World War I and later the Polish Army. During the German Invasion of Poland he commanded Independent Operational Group Polesie (Polish: Samodzielna Grupa Operacyjna "Polesie"). He never lost a battle in the Invasion of Poland, although he was eventually forced to surrender after his forces ran out of ammunition. Imprisoned in Oflag IV-B Koenigstein, he died in hospital in Dresden on 5 April 1941 and was buried there.

Early life
General Franciszek Kleeberg was born on February 1, 1888 in Tarnopol (then part of Austro-Hungarian Empire, next Tarnopol in interwar Poland again, now Ternopil Ukraine). He was of German and Swedish ancestry on his paternal side.

Yeah, we Germans face a lot of Kleebergs (figuratively): Wladyslaw Anders, Zygmunt Berling, Jozef Beck, Joachim Lelewel (Lölhöffel von Löwensprung) etc. and as for Poland these abberations started already with Jan Zyndram / Johann Sindram von Maszkowice in 1410. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Zy...von_Maszkowice