why did historian recorded presence of others in the maghreb if dna say mostly/everyone is berbers ?

**dark-mysterio** · 12-24-2019, 07:36 AM

disclaimer: in case of (because i remember a deleted comment of somebody insulting my than i was a pan-arabist in a very ancient topic with some minors similarities ) im not some kind of pan-arabism (i dislike them along with the berberist) who are against the berbers heritage of part or great part of the maghrebi people or any body else with similar agenda or a reverse agenda i ask this question because im not an expert about dna test

but why did pre-colonial historian/explorer recorded the presence of others along with the berbers if there is nobody except them in the maghreb ?

if you look into google book option (ans some non google book) and select in the date option 19 century (and some minors 20 century early 1900/first world war book) and write morocco,algiers,tunis you will find book of traveler who traveled tho the the little maghreb region in there book they ad section dedicated tho the various ethnic living in the region

for an example in this book (Sketches of Algiers, political, historical, and civil https://books.google.fr/books?hl=fr&...page&q&f=false) about the regency of Algiers (Algeria before french colonization)

we first (at page 90) have the mention of a group among the historical/autochthonous inhabitant the most common know among the berbers the kabyles

"The people of this northern portion of africa deserve the most attention are the kabyles who have always maintained their independence of the Algerine government and are probably of the ancient Numidico Mauritanians"

in page 28 we have the turkish/ottoman elite (regency of Algiers was vassal tho the ottoman)

"Though all Turks are essentially soldiers yet there is a portion of them separated into a civil division or class which is termed the corps of khodigas,or writers, and consists of such as have learned or are capable of learning to read this corps enjoys superior privileges writers to the public offices,"

in page 30 we have the Colories (kouloughlis mixed turks and natives ?)

physically and morally The Colories or sons of Turks are believed to exceed in number twenty thousand in the kingdom,
in page we have the jews page 65

"The Jews of whom there are about five thousand in this city have the free exercise of their religion"

in page 84 we have the moors (middle age Andalusian Muslim ?)

"The Moors then form the great majority of the population of cities of this kingdom are a factitious race descended from the ancient Africans the Arabs emigrants from Spain and are constantly adulterated"

in page 85 we have the Arabs/Arabs tribes

The Arabs inhabit the plains of this kingdom they live in tents and are constantly changing their positions according to the seasons and abundance of pasturage Their manners are purely pastoral and they probably possess both the virtues and the vices of their Asiatic ancestors,

in another book (Travels in Morocco, Volume 2 https://books.google.fr/books?id=LCN...q=race&f=false) we can read at both page 87 and 88:

"The population of Morocco presents five distant races and classes of people Berbers Arabs Moors Jews and Negroes"
"Maroquine Berbers include the varieties of the Amayeegh and the Shelouh who mostly are located in the mountains while the Arabs are settled on the plains The Moors are the inhabitants of towns and cities,"

isn't it's (if you remove the colories,turks and replace the kabyles with moroccan berbers group and ad a black ethnic minority for Algerians which i couldn't not found in any book) a similar (but short) similar intro description as the book describing the people of the regency of algiers ?

so if dna test suggest all or mostly of the maghrebi are berbers/amazigh why are historian representing others group living along side the natives berbers/amazigh ? should technically (if we follow whats the historian/explorer say) technically have along side berbers dna representing the others category ? and if yes how would the moors or the turks/koulighlis whould by identified via dna considering there are no just one ethnicity

this very confuse tho my and i hope some people give me a response thank you please

and sorry for my english

**~~Numidia~~** · 12-24-2019, 11:14 AM

The author mention algiers that is not the best representation of indigenous
In Algeria jews are almost non existent and people of turkisk descent a tiny minority just in algiers the same for andalusians they are recognized with their family names
There is no "berber" or "arab" component genetically speaking but maghrebis share common ancestry

**~~Nassbean~~** · 12-24-2019, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by dark-mysterio

disclaimer: in case of (because i remember a deleted comment of somebody insulting my than i was a pan-arabist in a very ancient topic with some minors similarities ) im not some kind of pan-arabism (i dislike them along with the berberist) who are against the berbers heritage of part or great part of the maghrebi people or any body else with similar agenda or a reverse agenda i ask this question because im not an expert about dna test

but why did pre-colonial historian/explorer recorded the presence of others along with the berbers if there is nobody except them in the maghreb ?

if you look into google book option (ans some non google book) and select in the date option 19 century (and some minors 20 century early 1900/first world war book) and write morocco,algiers,tunis you will find book of traveler who traveled tho the the little maghreb region in there book they ad section dedicated tho the various ethnic living in the region

for an example in this book (Sketches of Algiers, political, historical, and civil https://books.google.fr/books?hl=fr&...page&q&f=false) about the regency of Algiers (Algeria before french colonization)

we first (at page 90) have the mention of a group among the historical/autochthonous inhabitant the most common know among the berbers the kabyles

"The people of this northern portion of africa deserve the most attention are the kabyles who have always maintained their independence of the Algerine government and are probably of the ancient Numidico Mauritanians"

in page 28 we have the turkish/ottoman elite (regency of Algiers was vassal tho the ottoman)

"Though all Turks are essentially soldiers yet there is a portion of them separated into a civil division or class which is termed the corps of khodigas,or writers, and consists of such as have learned or are capable of learning to read this corps enjoys superior privileges writers to the public offices,"

in page 30 we have the Colories (kouloughlis mixed turks and natives ?)

physically and morally The Colories or sons of Turks are believed to exceed in number twenty thousand in the kingdom,
in page we have the jews page 65

"The Jews of whom there are about five thousand in this city have the free exercise of their religion"

in page 84 we have the moors (middle age Andalusian Muslim ?)

"The Moors then form the great majority of the population of cities of this kingdom are a factitious race descended from the ancient Africans the Arabs emigrants from Spain and are constantly adulterated"

in page 85 we have the Arabs/Arabs tribes

The Arabs inhabit the plains of this kingdom they live in tents and are constantly changing their positions according to the seasons and abundance of pasturage Their manners are purely pastoral and they probably possess both the virtues and the vices of their Asiatic ancestors,

in another book (Travels in Morocco, Volume 2 https://books.google.fr/books?id=LCN...q=race&f=false) we can read at both page 87 and 88:

"The population of Morocco presents five distant races and classes of people Berbers Arabs Moors Jews and Negroes"
"Maroquine Berbers include the varieties of the Amayeegh and the Shelouh who mostly are located in the mountains while the Arabs are settled on the plains The Moors are the inhabitants of towns and cities,"

isn't it's (if you remove the colories,turks and replace the kabyles with moroccan berbers group and ad a black ethnic minority for Algerians which i couldn't not found in any book) a similar (but short) similar intro description as the book describing the people of the regency of algiers ?

so if dna test suggest all or mostly of the maghrebi are berbers/amazigh why are historian representing others group living along side the natives berbers/amazigh ? should technically (if we follow whats the historian/explorer say) technically have along side berbers dna representing the others category ? and if yes how would the moors or the turks/koulighlis whould by identified via dna considering there are no just one ethnicity

this very confuse tho my and i hope some people give me a response thank you please

and sorry for my english

The answer is in your own question :

select in the date option 19 century (and some minors 20 century early 1900/first world war book)

---> at that time there were no genetic studies yet so they divided the population based on looks and culture.

but the reality is :

North African populations are also ethnically complex, and it is common to differentiate between Arab and Berber (Amazigh) groups based on cultural practices, such as language. Although historically and sociologically this consideration is assumed, no genetic differences have been reported between Arabs and Berbers when analyzing individual genetic markers (Bosch et al. 1997,, 2001; Plaza et al. 2003; Arredi et al. 2004; Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2011b; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013; Bekada et al. 2015).However, the present analysis of additional Berber samples reinforces the idea of no strong genetic distinction between Arabs and most Berber groups.

source : https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...80801#58231020