What is the true origin of Dinarization/Flat-Occiput, and where does it occur at high rates?

[JamesBond007]

I read about that, but doesn't make much sense to me, seeing as Meds are mostly round-occiput and alpines are less round-occiput (but still round-occiput), so it doesn't fit together that they would necessarily produce flat-occiput in a Dinarid/Armenid type. It seems more of a bang-your-head-against-typewriter type of theory than something rooted in logic

You are not looking at the skull from all angles. From the top birds eye view the front of the head of a dinaric is more mediterranean and the back more alpine like a wedge shape.

[Voyt]

You are not looking at the skull from all angles. From the top birds eye view the front of the head of a dinaric is more mediterranean and the back more alpine like a wedge shape.

Would appreciate some birds-eye comparison pics then

I'm not denying that Dinarids/Caucasids/Mtebids/Armenids may be partly Med and partly Alpinid, just that Flat-Occiput doesn't seem to be a necessary result of that. And anyway, Dinarids/Caucasids/Mtebids/Armenids look like their own evolutionary types rather than a "combination" of Med and Alpinid

There are other supposedly Med and Alpinid groups, like the Basques, and yet they have Round-Occiput

[Folcwalding]

First of all, the Occiput itself: there are three types of Occiput, a rounded Occiput, a rounded Occiput with Occipital Bun, and a Flattened Occiput.

A potential explanation for why Occipital Buns, and by extension Flat-Occiputs, would develop: "A study conducted by Lieberman, Pearson and Mowbray provides evidence that individuals with narrow heads (dolicocephalic) or narrow cranial bases and relatively large brains are more likely to have occipital buns as a means of resolving a spatial packing problem.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_bun

Theoretically then, the wider your face is, the higher chance it has to develop a flattened occiput, but I'm not sure if that's how it actually works out to in practice, because Mongolians for instance have high rates of brachycephaly but I don't think they have high rates of Flat-Occiput

What about the regions where Flat-Occiput is found? The classic sources state that it's highest in southern Dinaric range, but also in the Caucasus and Armenia.

But there is plenty of Flat-Occiput in Italy, France, Greece, Turkey, and to lesser extent Britain and Germany

Sloped-Forehead, a trait commonly partnered with Dinarization/Armenization, is most likely a remnant of Neanderthal admixture, but Neanderthals didn't have flat occiputs; they had an occipital bun, but their extremely large necks gave the appearance that they had a pseudo-flattened-occiput:



@12:50

Modern neanderthal-like, with sloped forehead and pseudo-flat-occiput:

another:

another extremely-wide neck neanderthal remnant:

Some Alpinized/Nordized Dinarids:





So what then, are we to assume is the true reason for spreading of "Dinarized" flat occiput?

From what I have seen, there is little literature on this subject, but there is one theory I found, which is that Flat-Occiput spread from the southeast Dinaric range via the Baden culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden_culture



But, could it have spread to Dinaric range from the Yamnaya if its original source was in the Caucasus? I.e., was Flat-Occiput originally a Cacausus-Hunter-Gatherer phenomenon? Have there been any studies on skull morphology of CHG?

My other question though, is have there been any studies on which other areas of the world have high rates of Flat-Occiput, with specific percentages? From what I have gathered over the years, it is not common at all among Mongoloid populations, neither among Native American populations, nor African populations, nor Indid populations.


Would appreciate any pushes in the right direction, any classical or modern sources (and of course we must be careful not to mistake neanderthal-like admixture with Flat-Occiput)

That's exactly my puzzle, so thank you for posting. Some thoughts.

We are talking about Dinarization that has the following treats brachycephaly+flat occiput (steephead).

The old anthropologist called it Dinarization because it occurred mostly there and may be they also thought it had some kind of connection with Dinaric people.

IMO it has no direct connection to Dinarization it occurs and occurs anywhere world wide, regarding Europe from England to Poland and the Balkan.

It has been a speciale 'trademark' or 'stigma' of the Bell Beakers. Some even stated that the dominant phenotype of the Bell Beaker was Dinarid. I translate it as the Bell Beakers have undergone a process of Dinarization. But is has occurred in more times and places.

But what is the key to it? I corresponded with another 'geek' about dinarization and our conclusion was: 'it's always tied with hightening of the stature'. I guess this is the key and this can have different roots from better living conditions to sexual selection or both.

But what about the idea that dinarization has a connection with hightening....!!!???

[Celine]

I'm dinarid, don't have Flat-Occiput, deal with it.

[The Great Uniter]

Nobody has essentially really flat occiput. Dinarids have more smooth occiput than bulbous/with a bulbous patch skulls- dinarid warrior skulls which are designed for their heads to not vibrate during damage, other heads vibrate hence the disorientation lasts longer since the vibration still travel through and they stay more occupied during damage. "flat" is misleading and I have "flat" occiput. Dinarids don't really that much of "flat" occiput, they have the same occiput as I do and it's still slightly protruding to nullify the vibration/power efficiently.



^Dinarid, that's proper dinarid

[Folcwalding]

Nobody has essentially really flat occiput. Dinarids have more smooth occiput than bulbous/with a bulbous patch skulls- dinarid warrior skulls which are designed for their heads to not vibrate during damage, other heads vibrate hence the disorientation lasts longer since the vibration still travel through and they stay more occupied during damage. "flat" is misleading and I have "flat" occiput. Dinarids don't really that much of "flat" occiput, they have the same occiput as I do and it's still slightly protruding to nullify the vibration/power efficiently.

I'm dinarid, don't have Flat-Occiput, deal with it.

^Dinarid, that's proper dinarid

http://humanphenotypes.net/basic/Dinarid.html

Of course it's not exactly flat, but it's sincere steep headed.

As said this a phenotype and even more a result of proces called 'dinarization'. It occurs on different times and places.

The key is most probably hightening, tallness....

And that has certainly a connection with the Dinaric Alps, in that sense that they belong to the tallest people. This is major push for 'dinarization'.

Basically take the word dinar(ization) not to literally it's simple not only bound to dinaric people, learn to deal with that

[Folcwalding]

double

[Celine]

http://humanphenotypes.net/basic/Dinarid.html

Of course it's not exactly flat, but it's sincere steep headed.

As said this a phenotype and even more a result of proces called 'dinarization'. It occurs on different times and places.

The key is most probably hightening, tallness....

And that has certainly a connection with the Dinaric Alps, in that sense that they belong to the tallest people. This is major push for 'dinarization'.

Basically take the word dinar(ization) not to literally it's simple not only bound to dinaric people, learn to deal with that

I adore when someone says dinarids are tall, I'm 160. Barely.

[Folcwalding]

I adore when someone says dinarids are tall, I'm 160. Barely.

Not all Dinarics have a Dinarid phenotype. 'Tall, short-headed type with bony features, a flat occiput and long nose' (=brachy+ flattened occiput) is quite crucial.

But the core of this thread is not to argue if you are Dinarid (qua phenotype) or not ....but to consider the key of dinarization.

[Voyt]

I'm dinarid, don't have Flat-Occiput, deal with it.

Your skull doesn't look brachy at all, that's most likely why
You have a more med skull shape